Dutch Synthetic Reefing
- Thread starter Crowther
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What else are you considering? I emailed the DSR guy. It doesn't look like he has any US distributors. But, maybe he'll ship to me from the Netherlands.
Looks like the Triton stuff is at least available to ship from California here: http://uniquecorals.com/dry-goods/triton.html
Looks like the Triton stuff is at least available to ship from California here: http://uniquecorals.com/dry-goods/triton.html
SynDen
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Ya Triton being able to ship from inside the US has fueled their popularity in recent years. Their system is testing and supplements, but there are others testing labs available now days that can test your water and give you all the numbers. If your savvy enough to use those to come up with your own dosing regiment, you could likely do it much cheaper. Which is likely what I will end up doing for my 800g+ system
One of the newer testing service available is from aquamedic at http://aquamedicwatertesting.com/
Stone aquatics, one of our sponsors, also has a mail in testing service that is pretty inexpensive. I havent tried their tests yet to see if they are something I can work with, but considering each in the near future.
One of the newer testing service available is from aquamedic at http://aquamedicwatertesting.com/
Stone aquatics, one of our sponsors, also has a mail in testing service that is pretty inexpensive. I havent tried their tests yet to see if they are something I can work with, but considering each in the near future.
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Indeed 
Any of these systems really are just about dosing back all the micro nutrients into the water, so you can avoid water changes. To do that effectively you have to be able to test these with lab accuracy, and then you need to supplement accordingly. With a testing service in the local region, I think it fully possible to come up with your own supplement regime. I plan on trying some once I get water in the big tank. I will likely send in sample test to them, once the initial cycle is complete, so I can get a starting baseline. Then I will look at which supplements I want/can use, but would love to hear what others have been using and their experience with it
Any of these systems really are just about dosing back all the micro nutrients into the water, so you can avoid water changes. To do that effectively you have to be able to test these with lab accuracy, and then you need to supplement accordingly. With a testing service in the local region, I think it fully possible to come up with your own supplement regime. I plan on trying some once I get water in the big tank. I will likely send in sample test to them, once the initial cycle is complete, so I can get a starting baseline. Then I will look at which supplements I want/can use, but would love to hear what others have been using and their experience with it
SynDen;n668559 said:
Indeed Any of these systems really are just about dosing back all the micro nutrients into the water, so you can avoid water changes. To do that effectively you have to be able to test these with lab accuracy, and then you need to supplement accordingly. With a testing service in the local region, I think it fully possible to come up with your own supplement regime. I plan on trying some once I get water in the big tank. I will likely send in sample test to them, once the initial cycle is complete, so I can get a starting baseline. Then I will look at which supplements I want/can use, but would love to hear what others have been using and their experience with it
Any of these systems really are just about dosing back all the micro nutrients into the water, so you can avoid water changes. To do that effectively you have to be able to test these with lab accuracy, and then you need to supplement accordingly. With a testing service in the local region, I think it fully possible to come up with your own supplement regime. I plan on trying some once I get water in the big tank. I will likely send in sample test to them, once the initial cycle is complete, so I can get a starting baseline. Then I will look at which supplements I want/can use, but would love to hear what others have been using and their experience with it
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In my mind I would do a lab test every 6 months or so, but otherwise I would be doing the tests myself and tracking my own results, just as you would in dsr. Likely even using their calculator as a guide, but $100 a year or so to ensure I'm on target with my tests, is piece of mind in my eyes. Although with DSR its like 11+ tests that need to be done on a regular basis. Test kits can be pretty expensive too, especially some of those less common ones. Either way you are paying for tests. The cost savings really is in, not needing to go through as much salt or water
I pulled the trigger and ordered the 500L DSR Starter from www.seaflower.nl You are right on the money with the test kits. I started to build a cart of them on Amazon and it's adding up quickly. Further, it seems Salifert has discontinued its Boron test kit. So, unless someone else is making one, that piece is going to be expensive anyway. Luckily, Boron is only supposed to be tested every 12 weeks I guess.
For any of these systems to work, you have to be right on the money with everything else, or else you should be spending time to be right on the money. Most people use them on SPS tanks, but if you have LEDs instead of overdriven MH bulbs, then you are already behind for not using the best of the best for output and spectrum... or use a three part instead of CaRx, then you are already behind for not replacing more than those three elements (CaRx will replace dozens), etc. Most of the real gain is only on paper or the internet unless you already are using best-of-breed stuff or else spending your money on the best of breed stuff would have been a better use to see more results. Seriously, for most people, just changing out their LEDs to some 20K radiums or 14K phoenix will do more to grow and color coral than almost anything other than getting basic water parameters in line and waiting for a tank to cycle.
Any posts or long term success stories about supplementing and not changing water are fools gold. You can find a few, but they are the vast exception with win-the-lotto type of odds... and most of them are very specific about what they can and do keep and will readily admit that certain kinds of corals don't do well in their tanks. Even though it might not seem like it, changing water with a solid, reliable salt is a very cheap way to ensure longevity. Using a cheap salt can do some harm with parameters being all over the place, so choose a salt carefully.
I will give my standard thought on this: most people who choose to use a method like this are ready to take a step in awareness and effort (either new to the hobby or are looking for a significant reinvestment into what they already have). It is very likely that the awareness that they gain and effort that they invest is what made the difference and not any method. This can be quite evident when they quit a particular method and nothing really changes - there are lots of threads about this for Zeo, ZF, etc. and if you look at each one, there is an event where the reefer gets better at about the same time and that quitting the method has shown no negative results.
Any posts or long term success stories about supplementing and not changing water are fools gold. You can find a few, but they are the vast exception with win-the-lotto type of odds... and most of them are very specific about what they can and do keep and will readily admit that certain kinds of corals don't do well in their tanks. Even though it might not seem like it, changing water with a solid, reliable salt is a very cheap way to ensure longevity. Using a cheap salt can do some harm with parameters being all over the place, so choose a salt carefully.
I will give my standard thought on this: most people who choose to use a method like this are ready to take a step in awareness and effort (either new to the hobby or are looking for a significant reinvestment into what they already have). It is very likely that the awareness that they gain and effort that they invest is what made the difference and not any method. This can be quite evident when they quit a particular method and nothing really changes - there are lots of threads about this for Zeo, ZF, etc. and if you look at each one, there is an event where the reefer gets better at about the same time and that quitting the method has shown no negative results.
If the DSR method fails, I have the RODI and plenty of salt. We'll see I guess. Some of the other things you mention are interesting. For instance, I will be using LED's and I see that Glenn Fong (the DSR method creator) does not. So, perhaps I will be behind the eight ball there.
In any event, it will be an interesting experiment. If I get anywhere near the results he has accomplished, I will consider it a success.
In any event, it will be an interesting experiment. If I get anywhere near the results he has accomplished, I will consider it a success.
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Doug does make a good point, although I wont step in that can of worms about the lights, but using this system really is about whether you are willing to put in the time in to make it work. Mixing salt and doing water changes is quite a bit easier then doing all those tests on a consistent, and regular basis, which would be 100% required to prevent failure. Cost benefits are kind of minimal in the long terms as well, and those that have had the best success are generally the ones that live close to a testing lab, and/or work for one.
Not that others cant be successful at it, in fact if you are diligent, patient and consistent then you will likely be very successful at it. For me, I think I like the challenge of not doing water changes and the opportunity to learn more about the finer intricacies of what is going on in our tanks that draws me to it. Plus I test things for a living, so its already programmed in me to test for EVERYTHING, if you can. lol
Not that others cant be successful at it, in fact if you are diligent, patient and consistent then you will likely be very successful at it. For me, I think I like the challenge of not doing water changes and the opportunity to learn more about the finer intricacies of what is going on in our tanks that draws me to it. Plus I test things for a living, so its already programmed in me to test for EVERYTHING, if you can. lol
If Fong's reef is the best example of not doing water changes and using this method that you can find, compare his photos to those of more traditional methods. Especially pay attention to what SPS corals are not in his tank (deepwaters, echinada, lots of milles, pearlberry, etc - the harder to keep ones) and especially pay attention to the color contrast in the acropora - it is very non-descript and sometimes not even there. Check out some of the tanks of BigE, JBNY or Copps and look very closely - these guys do a good job of having accurate, well-done pictures. If you look hard enough, or for long enough, what impressed you at first will not be so impressive anymore - lots of mature average corals with slightly greasy pictures and the SPS have only so-so color. (I am still guessing that you are wanting to have a good portion of SPS since you don't need to do any of this really for LPS, softies, montis, birdsnest and stylophora)
Also, this guys says that he does occasional water changes. What does this mean? A large water change every few months is occasional, but not that out of the norm for some. It might be a good idea to find that out.
BTW - I am not trying to talk anybody out of this. Just trying to educate. There are lots of folks who tried something like this only to find out that they did not really do much, or were a bit of a detriment, that wished that they would have known more when they got it.
Also, this guys says that he does occasional water changes. What does this mean? A large water change every few months is occasional, but not that out of the norm for some. It might be a good idea to find that out.
BTW - I am not trying to talk anybody out of this. Just trying to educate. There are lots of folks who tried something like this only to find out that they did not really do much, or were a bit of a detriment, that wished that they would have known more when they got it.
Balz3352 and I were just talking about Phosphate removal techniques. He is using GFO and I was trying to remember how the DSR method manages Phosphate. Apparently, it uses an Iron chelate to bind the Phosphate as discussed here: http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dsr-method-dutch-synthetic-reefing.162872/page-8 What are people's thoughts on that? The striking difference is the apparent lack of any need to remove the Iron chelate from the system.
It can bond P just like the GFO will, just in lower quantities. It is a different method of the same thing. Ferric Oxide is just iron too.
I guess that if it will bond to organics in the dissolved form, you could skim it out? This is just a supposition. In any case, does it make sense that you just keep on adding and export nothing? How can that work?
There is a complex relationship with phosphate in the aquarium. It will bond quite well to all calcium carbonate (rocks and sand). It bonds in equilibrium with the tankwater - generally, it is more complex than this, but think of it this way. As tanks are new and the calcium carbonate is phosphate free, it is really easy to keep P low since it is just being bonded everywhere. Eventually, everything will rise. People end up thinking that their rock and sand is poisoning their tank with phosphate when all that the rock and sand did was to mask a maintenance issue for years. This can be especially troublesome with dry/dead rock that already comes bound with phosphate. Export with even routine water changes from the beginning can keep this bound phosphate at a minimal level since the rock really will release some back into the water - some people don't change water because they don't see the P on the test kit, but it it still there in the rocks building up instead of being unbound and exported. This whole paragraph is a long way of saying that you could literally do nothing for years and not have much issue with phosphate only to have it really bite you later. There are other companies who sell products that don't do much that prey on this. It might be smart to have a tried and true phosphate export in place.
I guess that if it will bond to organics in the dissolved form, you could skim it out? This is just a supposition. In any case, does it make sense that you just keep on adding and export nothing? How can that work?
There is a complex relationship with phosphate in the aquarium. It will bond quite well to all calcium carbonate (rocks and sand). It bonds in equilibrium with the tankwater - generally, it is more complex than this, but think of it this way. As tanks are new and the calcium carbonate is phosphate free, it is really easy to keep P low since it is just being bonded everywhere. Eventually, everything will rise. People end up thinking that their rock and sand is poisoning their tank with phosphate when all that the rock and sand did was to mask a maintenance issue for years. This can be especially troublesome with dry/dead rock that already comes bound with phosphate. Export with even routine water changes from the beginning can keep this bound phosphate at a minimal level since the rock really will release some back into the water - some people don't change water because they don't see the P on the test kit, but it it still there in the rocks building up instead of being unbound and exported. This whole paragraph is a long way of saying that you could literally do nothing for years and not have much issue with phosphate only to have it really bite you later. There are other companies who sell products that don't do much that prey on this. It might be smart to have a tried and true phosphate export in place.
I'm hoping it skims out. I agree that it needs to come out somehow. Or stay bonded and settle I guess--becoming like the rock you mention.
Scary that it might suddenly spike years down the road by becoming unbound though. What would trigger that? Does the bond wear out, does the material just reach a maximum capacity to bind phosphate and not bind more, or does the phosphate free water column (after a water change say) create a stronger attraction for the once-bound phosphate?
Scary that it might suddenly spike years down the road by becoming unbound though. What would trigger that? Does the bond wear out, does the material just reach a maximum capacity to bind phosphate and not bind more, or does the phosphate free water column (after a water change say) create a stronger attraction for the once-bound phosphate?
It is not scary. The aragonite will stop being able to bind enough to keep your levels low, that is all. The aragonite does nothing wrong here - the reefer has bad husbandry and the aragonite just masks it for them for a while.
Every time that you change water, some unbinds back to equilibrium with the now-lowered aquarium water and the level in the rock/sand goes down a bit - the amount depends on the time and degree of neglect. This is why it is so important to keep on top of your water changes when there is seemingly no need - there is a need, but it is not all that measurable with a test kit. Taking out 10% of .01 when a tank is new is like having to do 100 50% water changes when it becomes 1.0 - there is a compounding factor at play.
Aragonite can unbid with phosphate if it is melted in a low PH situation - if this happens in your tank, then you have huge issues. This is the kind of thing that happens in a Calcium Reactor. Don't worry about this. BTW - natural calcium reactor media is free of any significant phosphate, as is live rock and sand from the reef since the water is so pure that equilibrium is virtually nil.
Every time that you change water, some unbinds back to equilibrium with the now-lowered aquarium water and the level in the rock/sand goes down a bit - the amount depends on the time and degree of neglect. This is why it is so important to keep on top of your water changes when there is seemingly no need - there is a need, but it is not all that measurable with a test kit. Taking out 10% of .01 when a tank is new is like having to do 100 50% water changes when it becomes 1.0 - there is a compounding factor at play.
Aragonite can unbid with phosphate if it is melted in a low PH situation - if this happens in your tank, then you have huge issues. This is the kind of thing that happens in a Calcium Reactor. Don't worry about this. BTW - natural calcium reactor media is free of any significant phosphate, as is live rock and sand from the reef since the water is so pure that equilibrium is virtually nil.