Injured Fish – Assistance Needed, Please Help.

[MaxxdOut]

On Saturday I added a small adult, Flame Angel to my tank. Unfortunately my Yellow Damsel didn’t appreciate the addition and proceeded to relentlessly beat on the Angel, shredding his fins, etc. To-date the Damsel has been an issue in the tank, past attempts at catching him failed. However, his aggression towards the new Angel brought me to my breaking point and I tore the tank down, caught and removed him. Now I’m in the process of trying to save the Flame.

As mentioned before, the Angle’s fins were badly picked at. Most of his posterior caudal fin is down to bone and the tip of his dorsal also has some bone exposed. Unfortunately he hasn’t eaten since his introduction and he’s spent most of his time hiding behind some rocks. He seems to be swimming fine, but understandably (given the beating) isn’t getting out much. I have tried to spot feed him with a long syringe using different foods, froze Mysis, frozen Cyclopseese, small cut up krill, Rods Reef Food, and mixing everything with Selcon Garlic and he still won’t eat.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I feel if I can get him to eat he will likely overcome his injuries. I'm open to any ideas or suggestions.


Thanks in advance for the help.
Chris

 

[Boogie]

Just thoughts but, reduce the light cycle down to almost nothing for a few days. try to minimize time staring at him or even walking in front of the tank. If he's too scared to come out of hiding he'll be too scared to eat. Give him a day or so of silence then drop in some food and watch from a distance. Not a pro, just telling you what I'd try.

 

[rmougey]

If his tailfin is down to the bone, it is probably worthwhile to put him in a bare QT tank and use a good broad spectrum antibiotic like Furan-2. DO NOT put antibiotics into your display tank!!

You can maintain water quality in a bare bottom QT by doing daily 30-50% water changes and then redosing the appropriate amount of antibiotic. A small sponge filter or airstone can be used to move the water in the 10-20g QT and you can siphon out excess food when doing the tank changes. I use SeaChem's Ammonia Alerts (found at your favorite LFS or big box pet store) to tell me how the tank is doing..... and adjust the frequency of the water change based on the reading of the Ammonia Alert.

Feed sparingly while in a bare QT and promptly remove uneaten food. Your fish should heal nicely and can return to the display once you start seeing tissue growth and no traces of red streaking around the wounds.

 

[Wicked Color]

IMO, I would soak some PE mysis in some garlic and try to feed small amounts for the next day or two, if it wont eat additional stress isnt going to help, no matter if antibiotics are involved.

 

[spstimie]

http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=56

Melafix, turn off your skimmer.

 

[bsharpe]

I would think that if you go with the quarantine that you put something in there for the flame to hide in and feel more secure. I like Boogies idea to avoid any more shock.

 

[rmougey]

If you use a QT, pvc pipe works well for hiding places, other inert material works as well. Don't use live rock or the like. A bare QT means no substrate, not an empty tank.

There are several treatments available, as spstimie mentions, and many of them are quite effective. Leaving the fish alone and hoping it gets better is also a choice that many make. Depends on the amount of effort you want to expend to help the fish recover.

Good luck with your fish.....

 

[MaxxdOut]

Thanks for the advice everyone. As Boogie suggested, last night I turned off all my lights and adjusted the time to only light the tank for 3hr's. I also, turned off the wave-maker completely in hopes that he wouldn't have to work as hard to avoid crashing into the rocks.

I went out and picked up a few live clams last night, cracked one and placed it next to his hiding spot. If it wasn't for my six-line I think he would have eaten some as he was very interested in it, but unfortunately he didn't.

At this point I think it might be best to place him in a quarantine tank and possibly medicate as Mougey suggested. I currently don't have a quarantine system setup. Does anyone have any suggestions on a basic system I can use to place a new fish into (in order to monitor their health before introduction into the display) while also being suitable for a hospital for situations like this (ill or injured fish)?

My Plan:
10gal - basic glass tank. No rock or sand, however, one or two ceramic flower pots for hiding
Eheim Liberty 150 hang on filter (Should I just run floss? I would also assume I shouldn't run carbon if medicating???)
small heater
Ammonia alert tabs

Would I be better off with a 20gal tank as opposed to a 10gal? Is the size of the liberty 150 enough for my needs? Also, should I be consider anything else with the setup?

Thanks again for all of the suggestions and help. I sure hope I can save him.
Chris

 

[djkms]

My QT setup consists of a 20 long, aquaclear 30 HOB, heater and airpump with rigid tubing at the end placed in the aquarium.

I have sponge that sits in my sump so if I have to setup QT I already have a established biofilter ready to go.

I would not setup a QT without some kind of biological bed ready to go, even a small amount of ammonia will probably do your fish in, especially after being moved from tank to tank. If you don't have something colonized with bacteria you will get a cycle started which is the last thing you want for your flame right now.

I actually disagree with Rob about not using live rock, it might be your only option to avoid a cycle in your QT tank. Just chose a couple pieces from your DT (if you don't have a sponge from your DT setup) and make sure to chose pieces that have as little life on them as possible so the die off will be minimal. Just know that you cannot put these rocks back into your DT and should be trashed after you break down your QT. I use LR from established systems in QT setups all the time. Trust me you do not want a ammonia spike with sick fish. I also setup my QT with water that was changed out from my DT.

btw for future reference: Its always a good idea to throw a few sponges into your sump so bacteria can colonize on them. This way if you ever have to setup a QT or hospital tank you will always have a biological bed ready to go!

 

[bsharpe]

My QT setup consists of a 20 long, aquaclear 30 HOB, heater and airpump with rigid tubing at the end placed in the aquarium.

I have sponge that sits in my sump so if I have to setup QT I already have a established biofilter ready to go.

I would not setup a QT without some kind of biological bed ready to go, even a small amount of ammonia will probably do your fish in, especially after being moved from tank to tank. If you don't have something colonized with bacteria you will get a cycle started which is the last thing you want for your flame right now.

I actually disagree with Rob about not using live rock, it might be your only option to avoid a cycle in your QT tank. Just chose a couple pieces from your DT (if you don't have a sponge from your DT setup) and make sure to chose pieces that have as little life on them as possible so the die off will be minimal. Just know that you cannot put these rocks back into your DT and should be trashed after you break down your QT. I use LR from established systems in QT setups all the time. Trust me you do not want a ammonia spike with sick fish. I also setup my QT with water that was changed out from my DT.

btw for future reference: Its always a good idea to throw a few sponges into your sump so bacteria can colonize on them. This way if you ever have to setup a QT or hospital tank you will always have a biological bed ready to go!

What kind of sponges?

 

[djkms]

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1474/Filter-Foam-Reticulated

You can also just use the sponges/foam that come with the HOB filters like so:
http://www.amazon.com/Hagen-A605-AquaClear-30-Foam/dp/B0002563UO

 

[djkms]

I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself as well saying I use sponge and live rock for bio filtration but I like to err on the side of caution and make sure I have enough items in QT with live bacteria on them.

 

[MaxxdOut]

Kris,
In some cases (maybe not mine) wouldn't the addition of medication to a QT that contains live rock/sponge kill the live bacteria and potentially cycle or crash the QT tank? Clearly I don't know enough of the science behind seeding a QT tank, but what does the live bacteria associated with the sponge/rock do in a bare, unrocked, fish only QT tank?

Does anyone else have input regarding my planning?

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[djkms]

I am not aware of any medications that wipe a bacteria bed, not that they dont exist but I have never used them. What spstimie linked you (Melafix) should keep your bacteria in tact. I have also treated with Prazi, etc and never had a issue of a crash.

 

[rmougey]

Your QT setup should be based on the type of treatment you intend to perform.

- If you are setting up a tank to house critters for observation, then having a sponge filter/live rock or other small power filter (Duetto), as suggest by djkms works great. It is important to have a biological filter in this situation. Using a bio-wheel off an established tank, or keeping a sponge filter in your sump works well for this.

- If you plan on treating with copper, then you shouldn't have calcium carbonate based items in your tank: coral sand, live rock etc. It can adsorb some copper chemical treatments and make dosing difficult.

- If you plan on treating with a broad spectrum or gram-negative anti-biotic, then you will also be killing off your biofilter. If the antibiotic doesn't kill the nitrosomonas and nitrobacters that keep your bio-filter alive, then they aren't often terribly effective against the bacteria that's infecting your fish. There are many anti-biotics that will obliterate your bio-filter when being used at therapeutic doses. Here I disagree with djkms.

- There are several gram-positive anti-biotics on the market (like Maracyn) which won't wipe out your bio-filter. Other manufacturers adjust their dosage to have minmal impact on the bio-filter.

If you are setting up a QT tank to be used for broad spectrum anti-biotic treatment, you will generally need to control ammonia through water changes. A sponge filter or other bio-filter can help.... but water changes are still needed.

Regardless of the type of QT you intend to setup, I would treat all QT systems with SeaChem's Stability. It is a bio-active additive that contains heteratrophic bacteria that quickly establishes a bio-filter. You can add this on a daily basis to assist with setting up and maintaining a healthy environment. I use it regularly when adding many fish to my copper QT systems.

Keep it simple is the best approach.... and maintain high water quality through frequent water changes. You'll find lots of recommendations.... pick the one that best suits your husbandry skills. Also, search other forums for QT Tanks.

-Rob

 

[Dracx]

If dealing with frags or small livestock and daily water changes, would a 2 or 3 gallon QT setup be sufficient? That would make water prep much easier. How long do you typically quarantine?

 

[rmougey]

I am not aware of any medications that wipe a bacteria bed, not that they dont exist but I have never used them. What spstimie linked you (Melafix) should keep your bacteria in tact. I have also treated with Prazi, etc and never had a issue of a crash.

Melafix is not an anti-biotic, but rather an anti-septic. It's Cajeput Oil. It doesn't effect the bio-filter and is effective in treatment of wounds by inhibiting infection.

PraziPro (praziquantel) is an antihelmenthic which is effective against worms (trematodes). In our world, that's flatworms and flukes. Prazi or General Cure (another product that works well for external parasites and contains prazi) won't effect your bio-filter.

Both great products to have in your QT toolbelt!

 

[DyM]

Some great advice, nothing to add. How's the little guy doing?

 

[rmougey]

If dealing with frags or small livestock and daily water changes, would a 2 or 3 gallon QT setup be sufficient? That would make water prep much easier. How long do you typically quarantine?

To setup a QT for corals and small critters, a 10 gallon tank works well. Smaller tanks are difficult to maintain, but certainly is doable if you pay close attention to the system.

General QT means setting up a tank with a filter, heater and light. Dips work great for frags and coral colonies. You should never add medications to your display, and you need to be careful about introducing medications to your invert QT tanks.

The purpose of QT is to ensure your new specimen is healthy, eating and ready for your DT. In the case of corals, you dip them to remove any external hitch hikers, let them stabilize in your QT, then dip them again before moving them to your DT.

The most common mistake folks make is buying a new fish, bringing it home and dropping it into their DT and letting it compete with all the established critters. The new fish often loses. This is where a QT helps let your new fish get established, possibly receive some prophylaxis for flukes and you can get them used to your feeding routine. This should last 2-6 weeks, depending on the health of the critter and the dollar investment you have in the DT.

Corals don't need the QT period that fish do. Many folks simply dip prior to placing in the DT.

Clams should be QTd for a couple of weeks to insure they don't have parasitic snails or pinched mantle disease.

 

[MaxxdOut]

I wanted to thank everyone for the help they provided me. Unfortunately, the Flame didn't survive his wounds and past last week. I truly feel terrible. I had concerns that the Damsel wasn’t going to like the addition of a new fish (one of the reasons why I haven’t added new fish to the tank in a long time), but I never thought it was going to be this bad. Unfortunately, I learned at the expense of a beautiful fish’s life and I feel awful.

On a slightly positive note, the other fish within my DT seem more relaxed since the overdue removal of the problem Damsel. I should have removed him along time ago.

Thanks again to everyone who tried to help.