Hi all. I have a 17 gallon nano that I've been running using the Berlin Method (only rock/sand for filtration). Anyone done this on larger tanks? I really want to get a 40 gallon breeder or a 55 and my apartment complex only allows a total water volume of 55 gallons. Can I do the Berlin Method successfully on a tank of this size? Anyone have long term success? I have heard that after about 5 years, problems really start showing up. Is this true?
Berlin Method
- Thread starter Shaunv
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I had a 37 gallon hex tank that I ran for 2 years with a 4.5 inch sand bed and 50 lbs of rock with no problems. Sorry I'm not much help on the 5 years thing, but a big thing with the DSB is get a bunch of sandsifting CUC. In my experience it is best to run a skimmer for approximately 3 months to allow a good amount of anaerobic bacteria to develop to reduce the nitrates. My hex tank ran at
Both of my large tanks have sand, rock and skimmers. Isn't a skimmer part of the berlin method? I don't skim in my SPS tank anymore so that the clams can filter the water.
The issues that appear over time is when the aragonite stops bonding with phosphate. It can be way more, or less, than 5 years depending on other factors like tank bio load. If you routinely swap out some sand for fresh, you can have many years of good reefing. I swap out 1 bag of sand a year - this makes for a messy day or two cleaning the sand, but it is easy and it works.
IMO, no method will be a magic bullet. The best method around is the "I am a solid reefer, I am patient and know what I am doing method." It works in all scenarios.
The issues that appear over time is when the aragonite stops bonding with phosphate. It can be way more, or less, than 5 years depending on other factors like tank bio load. If you routinely swap out some sand for fresh, you can have many years of good reefing. I swap out 1 bag of sand a year - this makes for a messy day or two cleaning the sand, but it is easy and it works.
IMO, no method will be a magic bullet. The best method around is the "I am a solid reefer, I am patient and know what I am doing method." It works in all scenarios.
Thanks Bubbarockies and Jda123 I appreciate the input. I happened to replace all of my sand after one year simply because I moved and was told it would be best to replace the sand. I will keep experimenting with my small tank for now and see how everything goes for a few years and figure it out lol. So far so good. 
. I have lost a couple of items but for the most part things have grown well and survived.
. I have lost a couple of items but for the most part things have grown well and survived.
Shaunv;254631 said:
Thanks Bubbarockies and Jda123 I appreciate the input. I happened to replace all of my sand after one year simply because I moved and was told it would be best to replace the sand. I will keep experimenting with my small tank for now and see how everything goes for a few years and figure it out lol. So far so good. . I have lost a couple of items but for the most part things have grown well and survived.
. I have lost a couple of items but for the most part things have grown well and survived.
See if you can find some old articles where Steve Weast talks about replacing sand systematically in his display. It was a long time ago, but this is basically what I use... wash the sand really good (I mean really good). Suck the old sand out with a 1" hose during a water change. Drop the new sand down through a long funnel into place. Run some carbon and filter floss to polish the water. If you wash the sand good enough, the coral don't even retract or get mad when you do it. I don't try and get under the rocks and all of that, just the stuff that is easy to get to.
When you hear people referring to older tanks leeching phosphates, this is not exactly true. The aragonite that they have in their system is just all bonded up. You can also run into nitrate issues because your sand will eventually be full of totally broken down organics (it has to go somewhere, right?) - we have all seen the sludge or goo. Some people routinely vacuum their sand to keep the organics down, which is a fine idea if you are up to the task, but it will still bond with phosphate and get used up eventually.
In the ocean, the phosphate bonded aragonite will slowly make it's way deeper in the substrate where the bacteria will lower the PH and it will dissolve into calcium, carbonate and little bits of phosphate magnesium, etc. The living reef will quickly consume the small amounts of phosphate. Of course, we cannot really have a system like this in our homes, so you just have to export the old sand.
Sorry for the rant, but this is also where people with silica sand and start to struggle. There is nothing to bond with the phosphate, but still places for sludge to accumulate. This system is hard to execute well with - not impossible, just harder. The silica sand people focus on the fact that there is a myth that silica will leech silicates into the water to increase algae growth - this is indeed a myth and it distracts from the other real issue that there is no longer anything to bond with the phosphate.
When you hear people referring to older tanks leeching phosphates, this is not exactly true. The aragonite that they have in their system is just all bonded up. You can also run into nitrate issues because your sand will eventually be full of totally broken down organics (it has to go somewhere, right?) - we have all seen the sludge or goo. Some people routinely vacuum their sand to keep the organics down, which is a fine idea if you are up to the task, but it will still bond with phosphate and get used up eventually.
In the ocean, the phosphate bonded aragonite will slowly make it's way deeper in the substrate where the bacteria will lower the PH and it will dissolve into calcium, carbonate and little bits of phosphate magnesium, etc. The living reef will quickly consume the small amounts of phosphate. Of course, we cannot really have a system like this in our homes, so you just have to export the old sand.
Sorry for the rant, but this is also where people with silica sand and start to struggle. There is nothing to bond with the phosphate, but still places for sludge to accumulate. This system is hard to execute well with - not impossible, just harder. The silica sand people focus on the fact that there is a myth that silica will leech silicates into the water to increase algae growth - this is indeed a myth and it distracts from the other real issue that there is no longer anything to bond with the phosphate.
Thanks Jda123, that is some great info. Thanks HondaHound glad to hear it is working for you so far.
I am beginning to come up with a plan...
I will be doing the 40 gallon Breeder with approximately 60 pounds of sand and 60 pounds of rock. I will have 2 mp10's and an overflow that feeds a 10 gallon refugium. I got an idea from Smiley that I will implement. I will have the overflow feed into the refugium where I will have a stand pipe using 4" PVC with holes drilled into it to allow the water through the bottom and help eliminate micro bubbles. I will place a filter sock into the stand pipe to collect larger pieces of junk. I will then have a sand bed, live rock, and chaetomorpha before the one and only baffle. The second chamber will have the return pump. If I feel I need to, I will purchase a protein skimmer and add on later and set next to my refugium. I will also increase my CUC and have some in my display and refugium.
I feel like what I have been doing over the past 15 months has been working pretty well. I do see that the sand can get pretty dirty and I don't tend to vac it out because I vac the water out too quickly in a 17 gallon tank.
Thanks again for the input, I appreciate it.
I am beginning to come up with a plan...
I will be doing the 40 gallon Breeder with approximately 60 pounds of sand and 60 pounds of rock. I will have 2 mp10's and an overflow that feeds a 10 gallon refugium. I got an idea from Smiley that I will implement. I will have the overflow feed into the refugium where I will have a stand pipe using 4" PVC with holes drilled into it to allow the water through the bottom and help eliminate micro bubbles. I will place a filter sock into the stand pipe to collect larger pieces of junk. I will then have a sand bed, live rock, and chaetomorpha before the one and only baffle. The second chamber will have the return pump. If I feel I need to, I will purchase a protein skimmer and add on later and set next to my refugium. I will also increase my CUC and have some in my display and refugium.
I feel like what I have been doing over the past 15 months has been working pretty well. I do see that the sand can get pretty dirty and I don't tend to vac it out because I vac the water out too quickly in a 17 gallon tank.
Thanks again for the input, I appreciate it.