Biological filtration questions
- Thread starter Haulin Oates
- Start date
I would have to disagree. There needs to be some bacteria in the system somewhere to convert ammonia->Nitrite->Nitrate otherwise the fish will eventually get ammonia poisoning.
Jack,
Bacteria pretty much grows on all surfaces. The best thing you can use if you have it is some sponge from your system your breaking down. If you don't have any sponge you can use a couple pieces of rock, you just wont be able to reput them back into a system with inverts if you use copper to treat. Also be aware that if you do use copper to treat ich that your rock will absorb some of the copper so keep a eye on your levels.
Jack,
Bacteria pretty much grows on all surfaces. The best thing you can use if you have it is some sponge from your system your breaking down. If you don't have any sponge you can use a couple pieces of rock, you just wont be able to reput them back into a system with inverts if you use copper to treat. Also be aware that if you do use copper to treat ich that your rock will absorb some of the copper so keep a eye on your levels.
You could, but your still poisoning your fish between water changes. Even if you do 100% water changes every day ammonia is still building up between changes.
We are not talking about 1 fish in QT here, he wants to treat all his fish. IMO I would just use existing sponge or a couple nice size pieces of live rock in QT. Better to lose a couple pieces of rock than using massive amounts of salt and taking a higher risk losing fish.
We are not talking about 1 fish in QT here, he wants to treat all his fish. IMO I would just use existing sponge or a couple nice size pieces of live rock in QT. Better to lose a couple pieces of rock than using massive amounts of salt and taking a higher risk losing fish.
Yeah, I've lost enough fish... I have a penguin 400 hob filter that I used on my 55 when I first started. I'm thinking I'll stuff that with the pieces of filter pad I've got in my system and I may leave 1 or 2 rocks in there too. The first round of Medication is praziquantel and metro something... I'll have to check tge package. Then after a week of clear water I'll do an Ich treatment of some sort for at least 2 weeks. I'm not sure it will be copper though. I also have an aqua medic skimmer I can make hang on the side, because my sump won't be running anymore during this time. Should I skim?
I've always used filter pads from my sump and stuffed them in the HOB filters. Works great. You could probably get away with just that unless you saw some increase in ammonia...if you did then you might consider adding a bit of rock. I use the Ammonia Alert tabs that have a suction cup. Great for QT tanks and last a year.
Also, aeration is important. If you do run a skimmer (not really needed IMO) you wouldn't need aeration as the skimmer would take care of that. However, with a decent amount of fish some sort of aeration would be good. When I only have one or two in QT, using a powerhead to keep keep the surface agitated/circulating, is usually enough. Lowering the salinity will help increase breathing/oxygen as well for the fish, which is what I'm assuming Heather was talking about, since that is far from a hypo-salinity treatment.
Also, aeration is important. If you do run a skimmer (not really needed IMO) you wouldn't need aeration as the skimmer would take care of that. However, with a decent amount of fish some sort of aeration would be good. When I only have one or two in QT, using a powerhead to keep keep the surface agitated/circulating, is usually enough. Lowering the salinity will help increase breathing/oxygen as well for the fish, which is what I'm assuming Heather was talking about, since that is far from a hypo-salinity treatment.
Good lord, no replies for this guy all day long and when i reply you suddenly feel the need to disagree, please feel free in the future to pipe up earlier. Let me state the obvious. Run a skimmer to remove the ammonia before it becomes harmful. If you run chemicals turn off your skimmer, check levels daily and do water changes as needed. Run a uv sterilizer to elimate pests in a fish only tank. Also a lot of fish dont react well to copper treatment, wouldnt recommend it at all. If you want to treat ich, increase the temp in a fish only tank to make the cycle happen faster, run a uv sterilizer, run a skimmer and do weekly water changes of 20 %. Dont have lr in the system, have a bare bottom tank, and use pvc for the fish to hide in to lower stress levels. Hope this helps. Info is based off experience and a guy who has a degree in biology. Thanks for looking.
Sorry, I will make it a point to stalk the forums even more than I already do and speak sooner to please you, ok?
Skimmer to remove ammonia? News to me, please site your source. The air bubbles do not bind to ammonia molecules in the water they bind to dissolved organic compounds and proteins in the water, this will help reduce the DOC before they are converted into ammonia but will not eliminate ammonia itself.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/fm/feature/index.php
A UV sterilizer to ELIMINATE pests? UV Sterilization can kill protozoa, bacteria and the such but they do little to ELIMINATE any disease. Their effect in treating any disease is pretty nil.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php
In regards to copper; how many fish have you actually treated with copper? What is YOUR experience with copper? We get shipments in every couple of weeks. I don't mean 2-3 fish I mean 30-40 fish. Fish that show signs of Ich get treated with copper, we use it ALL THE TIME. Yes there are some fish that are more sensitive to copper than others, angels, butterflies and such but overall copper (if used correctly) is a safe and effective treatment for MOST fish.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
Your suggestion to treat Ich is to raise the temp, run a UV and do only 20% water changes? Show me proof this has worked for anybody. There are only 3 known ways to eradicate ich:
Copper
Hyposalinity
Tank Transfer Method
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951
A person "who has a degree in biology" would know to site sources in a rebuttal.
Skimmer to remove ammonia? News to me, please site your source. The air bubbles do not bind to ammonia molecules in the water they bind to dissolved organic compounds and proteins in the water, this will help reduce the DOC before they are converted into ammonia but will not eliminate ammonia itself.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/fm/feature/index.php
A UV sterilizer to ELIMINATE pests? UV Sterilization can kill protozoa, bacteria and the such but they do little to ELIMINATE any disease. Their effect in treating any disease is pretty nil.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php
In regards to copper; how many fish have you actually treated with copper? What is YOUR experience with copper? We get shipments in every couple of weeks. I don't mean 2-3 fish I mean 30-40 fish. Fish that show signs of Ich get treated with copper, we use it ALL THE TIME. Yes there are some fish that are more sensitive to copper than others, angels, butterflies and such but overall copper (if used correctly) is a safe and effective treatment for MOST fish.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
Your suggestion to treat Ich is to raise the temp, run a UV and do only 20% water changes? Show me proof this has worked for anybody. There are only 3 known ways to eradicate ich:
Copper
Hyposalinity
Tank Transfer Method
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951
A person "who has a degree in biology" would know to site sources in a rebuttal.
Wow!! I didn't intend to cause a fight!! Thank you EVERYONE for your input! I think I'll pull all but 2 medium pieces of rock, add the HOB and a few air strips, and have the skimmer on standby to assist. Oh and pull as much sand as possible. Then I'm gonna lower salinity to 1.020 over tge next few days. At which point I'll start the prazi meds. After 2 courses of 48hrs each ill do a large water change and start slowly raising temp to 81 or 82 degrees. Ill watch for a week here. Then Ill do an Ich treatment for 2 weeks, which will probably be Kordons Ich attack since I've had really good luck with that in the past and it's not as harsh as copper. I do have copper already though if I change my mind. Sound like a good plan?
Sounds like a plan...how big is your tank? You could probably get away with just one piece of liverock if you leave some sand in. The only thing I would get some more feedback/opinions on is your actual ich treatment. I've never heard good things about manufacturer claimed "ich cures" etc. I would stick to copper. Cupramine to be more specific. Cupramine is much gentler than straight copper treatments as it's "chelated", which in a nutshell....
(not mine)
"CHELATED COPPER is a precisely formulated copper mix for use as a source of copper ion for the prevention of marine fish diseases caused by the protozoan parasites Oodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans. It is also used for preventing fresh water fish diseases caused by Oodinium, Costia, Chilodonella, Icthyophthirius and Trichodina. Chelated Copper is less toxic than non-chelated copper and can be used at higher concentrations. It also resists precipitation and adsorption by aquarium substrates."
I treated several of my angels (that had Ich...BAD), which are notorious for being more sensitive to copper, with no problem using Cupramine. Just my .02
(not mine)
"CHELATED COPPER is a precisely formulated copper mix for use as a source of copper ion for the prevention of marine fish diseases caused by the protozoan parasites Oodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans. It is also used for preventing fresh water fish diseases caused by Oodinium, Costia, Chilodonella, Icthyophthirius and Trichodina. Chelated Copper is less toxic than non-chelated copper and can be used at higher concentrations. It also resists precipitation and adsorption by aquarium substrates."
I treated several of my angels (that had Ich...BAD), which are notorious for being more sensitive to copper, with no problem using Cupramine. Just my .02
Quiet a few ppl i know, myself included have had fished killed off by copper. If i were you do plenty of research on your fish prior to the treatment to insure there are no fish know to suffer from copper saturation. If not then copper will fix your prob for sure. I myself would nvr use lr in a qt cuz it will continue to absorb copper and cause fluctuations in copper levels but dosent mean u cant.
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