Copper leaching.

[FishFish]

Hi, everyone.

I need your thoughts on a water issue I'm having.

Something is leaching copper into what's left of my 220g reef tank. It has been doing great for a couple of years. A few weeks ago I did some aquascape adjustments to add some variety, by adding a few pieces of extra dry rock I had leftover from the original build. About a week after that all of my montis started bleaching and snails started dying. The mushrooms are surviving but not fully extended. The dry rock originally came from a popular online source in Florida a couple of years ago.

I put in some polyfilter and it started turning blue after a few days. But, the API copper test shows zero. All other parameters are good except ammonia which is a little high, but under .5. I've read that is due to the die off caused by the copper.

I have put polyfilter in the RODI storage tank I use, and in the saltwater mixing tanks and they haven't turned blue. So it's not coming from the external water or salt.

I'm also running Cuprisorb now too.

I think I have tested everything I can, so it seems to be coming from inside the system somewhere.

I looked for any stray metal that might have inexplicably fallen in the tank, but I don't see any.

I'm at a loss for where this copper could be coming from.

Have any any of you had issues with supposedly unused dry rock leaching copper?

Do these polyfilters ever show a false positive regarding what is turning them a certain color?

Thanks for any insight you might have.

FF

 

[sethsolomon]

do you have any brass connectors in your plumbing? Brass is copper and Tin.

 

[SynDen]

Id start by removing the dry rock you added and see if it clears up

 

[MuralReef]

Id start by removing the dry rock you added and see if it clears up

+1 sounds like the only thing that has changed.

 

[FishFish]

Thanks, Seth, Syn, mural.

I dont one use any metal fittings in the system.

It it took a while to even determine it was copper. By then the damage to the reef had been done.

I usually use tropic marin pro reef, but it has been hard to get because of the west coast dock issues, so I used a batch of reef crystals the week before. So I originally that the issue was bad salt. An Lfs tested my tank water and all Params were consistent with what I tested, and zero on a copper test. It wasn't until I put in the polyfilter and it turned blue after a few days that I had any clue it was copper. I suspected because of the snails dying, but the fire shrimp was fine. I didn't see any damaged equipment like cracked heater or exposed wires.

So, by process of elimination, I'm down to the rock. I put another piece of the same dry rock in a bucket of saltwater and some polyfilter last night. If that turns blue, I'll know the cause, and solution.

I'll pull out the new rock that's in the tank and put it in another bucket of saltwater with polyfilter to see if it also turns blue.

That'll be fun pulling it off the bottom of the 30" deep tank ;-)

ff

 

[zombie]

Are you sure its copper. If the test showed 0 and you saw an ammonia spike, that would lead me to believe that die off from the new rock caused a mini cycle that built up enough ammonia to kill off more sensitive invertebrates, not copper.

 

[SynDen]

Was this rock totally dry when you put it in, or did you cycle it before hand?

 

[FishFish]

Hi, zombie. The only reason I think it's copper is, even though the API copper test shows 0, the polyfilter turned blue...which is supposed to indicate copper. It didn't happen right away....it took several days for a light shade of blue to appear, and then got progressively darker over the next couple of weeks.

Yes, ammonia has spiked to .25-.50, but that could be from copper killing the nitrifying bacteria. All of the fish are fine, and so is my fire shrimp.

Syn, yes it was totally dry rock....which in smaller amounts probably wouldn't be an issue...but I put in several pieces.....lesson learned.

All of these came direct from the Florida supplier, but who knows if the rock had been 'used' before, maybe in an hospital tank that had been treated with copper...

So, my original question was about polyfilter and if it ever gives a false positive for copper. Thoughts on that, anyone?

ff

 

[zombie]

So, my original question was about polyfilter and if it ever gives a false positive for copper. Thoughts on that, anyone?

ff

Its definately possible. They turn green for ammonia, so if the yellow pigment never shows from a manufacturing defect, it would show as blue.

 

[FishFish]

Ya know, zombie, that would be a much more plausible explanation than copper.

I just tested ammonia, and it's still elevated around .50. The fish are still fine, so is the fire shrimp. The Mexican turbo snails were the first to go, but now the astrea and 'turbin' snails are kickin it.

I guess I'm surprised that adding that extra rock would have kicked off such a 'severe' nitrogen cycle. I have added rock to other tanks before, and to this one, in smaller amounts at one time, and didn't have any cycling issues that resulted in die off. But, I have a fair amount of large-ish fish in this tank, so maybe the bacteria is just taking a while to adjust.

I added some more 'cycling' bacteria, to maybe help that along....but honestly, I've never seen those bacteria supplements help in any measurable way.....but that's another topic. ;-)

It's also interesting that the montis bleached only in the areas that were directly in the light. I have some that are under some rock overhangs, so they don't get super direct lighting. Now, I haven't adjusted the lighting in anyway...they are LEDs. So maybe the combination of ammonia and direct light was the culprit for those...more mysteries to ponder....

I did post a message to the polyfilter manufacturer, so we'll see if I get a response back about the 'false positive' thing...

a

 

[SynDen]

Ya I think the ammonia spike is much more plausible, given it was uncured dry rock. My guess would be that you kicked off a mini-cycle on the tank and spikes from a cycle would be plenty to bleach or kill many montis or hard corals.
Its also possible that someone used some chemical near or around the dry rock when you were storing it, which would also cause similar issues. Where did you keep this rock when you werent using it? Possible that someone sprayed some chemicals around it and possibly got some on the rock?

 

[jahmic]

Seachem Prime does a good job of "locking up" ammonia. It'll help keep your livestock healthy while the tank recovers, and is safe to dose in a reef.

I'd agree that blaming Cu at this point will leave you chasing your tail. Without knowing whether those filters would've changed color prior to adding the rock, you're better off addressing the consequences of adding dry rock to the tank and treating the polyfilter "results" as a false positive.

 

[FishFish]

Well, my 'copper saga' continues. The PolyFilter is still pulling out copper; i.e. turning blue. I did get a note back from the PolyFilter manufacturer and they confirmed that a copper 'false positive' was highly unlikely. So, I'm still trying to determine the source. I took out the dry rock, put it in a bucket of saltwater with a pump and heater, and a new piece of polyfilter....didn't turn blue at all....just brown-ish, pulling out organics. I don't think the dry rock is the issue.

So, this whole thing started the week after I put in the dry rock, did a water change, everything was fine. The next week, I did my usual water change, but my return pump wouldn't come back on. I replaced it right away with a spare I had. I've never had a return pump just outright fail, so I wasn't sure what that was about. The spare pump is running fine.

On the failed pump, when I try to turn the impeller manually, its very tight...which I think they are anyway because of the magnet. I took it apart this morning (I know, a few weeks too late) and the whole impeller, shaft and chamber is rusted out. Now, I've never taken one of these apart like that, but I don't think that's supposed to be rusted out, right?

ff

 

[SynDen]

What kind of pump(s) are you using? But no those shouldn't rust out, and all pumps that are marine safe generally use a ceramic and plastic. Although if the casing broke its possible the magnets or some of the internal pieces would rust. Generally speaking though rust is a sign of iron not copper and low doses of iron shouldn't hurt the tank.
Are there any kids in the house? or use any chemicals in the room near the tank or on cleaning any of the parts?

 

[FishFish]

[attachment=68820:name]

Hi, Syn. It's an Aquatop CQP9000. I even called the manufacturer before using it and they confirmed it was ok for saltwater. The pump lasted about 15 months. Ugh.

ff

 

[zombie]

That pump is probably your copper source.

 

[SynDen]

Well whether that is the source or not, you really would need to know what metal that is and what is plated with, but it is certainly a possible culprit as that pump is certainly not reef safe. Reef safe pumps would not have any exposed metal like that.
If this was the source tough I would think you would have been seeing signs of it leaching copper quite some time ago. And also should be noted in a reef tank, you should likely pull apart your pumps on a monthly basis and clean all the parts.

 

[FishFish]

An update on my 'copper catastrophe'.

I do think it was the failed return pump that was leaching, what the PolyFilter said, was copper...it turned blue.

It's weird that the pump lasted for 15 months without issue, but when it started to fail, it must have sent copper into the system.

I had a spare (same make/model as the failed pump) that I installed right away, but the copper levels kept showing up over a couple of weeks. Never on an copper test, those always showed negative, but with the PolyFilter turning blue. I'm also running Cuprisorb but that has yet to change color. Probably because the PolyFilter absorbs the copper before the Cuprisorb can.

During this whole 6-week ordeal I continue to do regular weekly 10-15% water changes

I took that spare pump out and replaced it with a confirmed reef-safe return pump, and the issue appears to be resolved. The PolyFilter reached a lower saturation of 'blue' and then stopped. The corals that survived, mainly just softies, are opening up more now.

Some encrusting corals weren't phased by it at all, but the plating montis were the first to go, along with the larger turbo snails and larger astrea snails. The mushrooms were mostly retracted, but they did survive. The fire shrimp lived thru it just fine, as well as all of the fish.

I'll continue to run PolyFilter, but just smaller pieces...it's really expensive....it would definitely be an early warning sign that something was wrong.

Now, it's time to restock the tank with corals....time to go shopping. ;-)

ff

 

[SynDen]

You may want to give the tank some time get out any remaining copper from the system before adding any of those corals back in.
Likely that pump was leaching the copper for sometime, but took it awhile to build it up enough to affect the inhabitants.
I would also contact the manufacturer of those pumps and make them fully aware that those pumps are not safe for saltwater tanks. That was very negligent on their part to tell you that they were.