All right, about to drink the kalkwasser kool aid. Some basic questions

[miwoodar]

OP here, checked to verfiy. lol. Thank you all for all the great advice. I have read the article and while it helps, I do mo betta with examples from those I trust (i.e. Wicked). THAT SAID, I don't dose, never have so I appreciate any and all information given. I can't bring myself to dump water in, i don't trust my own measuring methods well enough to do that. Big difference between Tsp and tbsp. IF i go the kalkwasser way, I'll end up buying some piece of equipment that slowly drips kalk into the tank. I'll end up under doing it for a while, then adjusting up. Again, I just don't trust myself and value what I have too much.

I know everyone has ways that have worked for them, the same ways have had disasterous results for others. I err on the side of caution and find that getting examples of what multiple different people are using help me decide which method I will try. This is the method that I have chose to work for me. If you dump it in, throw two spoons over your shoulder while doing a naked caveman dance thats fine, I'm glad to consider that as method. If you count every single crystal and throw out the ones without blue eyes and blonde hair thats fine too, I'm glad to consider that as a method. What ever works for you has never failed for me as I have tried nothing. I have appreciated everyones suggestion and have read them all. Please keep up the good, friendly advice coming. =)

Derek is right about the limitation. Kalkwasser, iirc, only got me to .5 meq day with my current tank. That's with three fans to keep the evap up. FWIW, it's chemically impossible for kalk to keep up with a full-bore, mature, SPS tank unless you open the slurry option, which is an option most reefers will say no to.

Mark, how often do you travel? If you're ever away from the house, batch dosing is not going to cut it.

 

[Wicked Color]

Cool dude, glad it works for you! Nice signature, just canged that?

Thank's! It was on a movie I was watchin' the other day, or something, maybe the news, makes sense though, right?
edit-it was newt gingrich the other day.

 

[Boogie]

Derek is right about the limitation. Kalkwasser, iirc, only got me to .5 meq day with my current tank. That's with three fans to keep the evap up. FWIW, it's chemically impossible for kalk to keep up with a full-bore, mature, SPS tank unless you open the slurry option, which is an option most reefers will say no to.

Mark, how often do you travel? If you're ever away from the house, batch dosing is not going to cut it.

About once a year (HEADING ON A CRUISE TO BELIZE, BOCA and the likes this SATURDAY!! WOO-HOO!) ...um..anyways...yeah, not that often. I don't have or plan on having an sps tank, I mainly want to use the kalk to steadily maintain my ca level. I have read exactly what you guys say, its not really for bumping, mainly for maintaining. I hope that will work for what I want.

 

[andyrm66]

Thank's! It was on a movie I was watchin' the other day, or something, maybe the news, makes sense though, right?
edit-it was newt gingrich the other day.

Donald Trumps new book.

 

[Wicked Color]

sorry, I sing out of key when I am happy......
[video=youtube;xOnWifB1DeA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOnWifB1DeA[/video]
tank cleared in the time it tokk to upload and post this....

 

[miwoodar]

Mark, if your interests are not SPS then you're not likely to ever out-run the abilities of kalkwasser. I still think you should design a set-it-and-forget-it approach though if at all possible (perhaps a nielsen reactor like Craigers mentioned). I recently went on a two week trip and my tank still had NSW levels when I got back. It gives me piece of mind to know that it only takes me 10 minutes to swap in the BIG ATO for when I need to leave town. I also go on plenty of 3-4 day trips throughout the year. For all that we all have invested in this hobby, it's nice to put a scheme in place makes it reliable and relatively easy.

WD, I can't see videos from the office but I've heard good things so I'm looking forward to checking it out.

We're onto the 2nd page of this thread and you're still not understanding the point of the discussion. It's not whether you have a nice tank or not. The concept being being debated is 'best practice'. Batch dumping kalkwasser is not an example thereof. Yes, it can be very successful, but it's not best practice. I can find you examples of hard core systems (TOTM quality) that do not use a skimmer. Does that mean I'm going to ditch my skimmer? No. A skimmer is insurance I am not willing to do w/o. I can also find you some very nice tanks that run PC bulbs. I'm never going back to PCs. There are also many great tanks that do not run an ATO. I'm not giving up my ATO. There are tanks that don't do water changes (been there myself even). I'm not going to say that people shouldn't do water changes though. Shall I go on?

"Only stupid people never change their mind." That is a very childish jab by a person with such an esteemed role in this club. Isn't one of the fundemental principles of the club to 'share the knowledge'? I'm sorry, but you're failing to describe the options available. (This is a great place to start BTW...http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/chemistry if only Randy would update it to include his DIY two part recipe.)

Who didn't change their mind? Me? I've batch dosed kalk. I've tried a lot of Ca/alk schemas and had success with all of them.
1995-1997 (baking soda and off-the-shelf calcium products)
1997-2001 (ATO kalkwasser on some tanks, batch kalkwasser on others...500+ gallons at home and 600+ for clients)
2003-2004 (B-ionic then B-ionic with ATO kalkwasser)
2004-2009 (ATO kalkwasser then a calcium reactor then the two in combo)
2009-2011 (DIY two part with ATO kalkwasser then switched back to straight ATO kalkwasser due to lower Ca/alk demand)
2011-present (DIY two part on dosing pumps...the easiest solution yet)

 

[Off The Deep End]

Aaron your the man!!!

 

[miwoodar]

Listen kids, don't do that.

How many people in this list do you think would be so lassez faire with their tank...http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list?

 

[Boogie]

Miwoodar,
I'm confused by your last few statements. I said I wouldnt dump "I can't bring myself to dump water in, i don't trust my own measuring methods well enough to do that". I understand that you guys are "debating" best practices and I again say, I won't dump, not because it doesn't work, but because I don't feel that I can be trusted enough to make sure its right.

I WOULD LOVE TO DO A SET AND FORGET. THIS IS MY GOAL. WHAT DO I NEED TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL? =)

I guess I need to clarify more and say that I'm looking for equipment that will work off my rodi ato system (experience of product and quality prefered). If its best to run it on a slow drip self contained (meaning that I will still run my rodi system as an ato but will also have a kalk (I'm dutch so I can use that instead of lime if I want to. =) ) dripping in then that information would be appreciated as well.

When discussing Aaron's method of dossing I will not disagree that it works for him as he has great success with it. I will not argue the the risks out weigh the rewards as I have no experience to do that. I had asked for opinions and he has given his, I do not feel that he should need to defend it and his methods as they have worked for him. Dumping slurry is not my choice of method as I don't trust myself enough for that.

The article was a great read and seems to lean towards the drip method that I also lean towards. I would like more information about what products you guys have (equipment wise) and how you have felt they work for you.

 

[djkms]

Mark I have a Geo kalk stirrer and Tunze Osmolator ATO for sale on RC. I can sell it to you cheaper if you are interested in automating the process. PM if interested.

 

[miwoodar]

...sorry if I've come off a bit aggressive. I'll take part of the blame for the escalation. My apologies.

Mark, given the following...
* your coral interests are not likely to ever max out the ability of kalkwasser (or match fullly saturated kalkwasser for that matter)
* that you're running your ATO through your RODI (if it's hooked up 100% of the time a nielsen reactor becomes problematic give the above)
* that you're interested in a set-it and forget it system

The good news...the cheapest approach is also the easiest. DIY two part. My 140 SPS is on track for $12/year.
* The instructions (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php)
* Dosing pump system (here's a cheap option...http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/drew-s-doser-peristaltic-dosing-pump.html)
* Containers (I'm on track for 53 days out of 2.5 gallon containers right now)
* Timer (I used this one because it's cheap, can be programmed to the minute, and I don't have a controller...http://www.google.com/products/cata...4&ei=ZlveTtn-KdTgggffgvD8CA&ved=0CCUQ8wIwAg#p)
* Consumables (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium)

I'm not saying this is THE route. This is just an option. If you decide to try it, I can help you dial it in...I built a spreadsheet based around Randy's DIY recipe that will allow you to plug in just a few numbers and it will tell you how long to run the timers.

Edit to add...I just saw that Kris posted his nielsen reactor. It can work too. Given that you would be dosing slowly through an ATO, it's much more forgiving. Your tank can, somewhat, self regulate through precipitation to the rocks, pumps, etc. It's a good approach but you'll need to make sure it's not too much. If it turned out to be such, you would need to mitigate in some way (maybe you could run only a portion of your top off through the reactor...I've never tried such a thing and can't comment as to whether or not it would be a good idea). Maybe Kris would have ideas on this?

 

[djkms]

Well I can tell you my history with using them. At first I ran it with a Tunze Osmolator by itself. This works great and is consistent. Drawback though is if you start doing work in the tank and start taking stuff out (and not thinking about the ATO) you could potentially trigger the ATO and can dump in a good amount of saturated limewater. A controller can help avoid that though. After that incident I put some coding into my Neptune which only allowed the ATO to run 1 minute at a time 10 times a day. This works great! In the pursuit of perfection though I wanted more precis control so I hooked it up to a litermeter instead of a ATO. Now I add saturated water at a rate of 5.5 liters per day continuously throughout the day which is about my evaporation rate.



A ATO (any which you chose) will work great, you just need to know it weaknesses so you know what to expect should something go wrong. IMO peristaltic pumps on a controller is about as fail safe as you can get.



I stir the kalk twice a day for a minute each. Unless you are dumping more than 2 gallons of top off per day you dont need to stir it more. Good rule of thumb (IMO) would be 1 stir per gallon of top of per day. Stirs only need to be 1 minute. I also suggest not adding the stirred kalk to your system for at least 30 minutes after a stir (I go a hour). After stirring the kalk is in suspension and if you dose it right away you will be adding the powder itself and kalk is strong.

 

[djkms]

To add I have about 3 cups of kalkwasser in the reactor at any given point. Once the water hits a PH of 12.5 the water becomes saturated and the remaining kalk does not dissolve into the water. This is the reason to stir it. As the water passes through the reactor during the day it starts to clear up because the kalk at the bottom of the reactor is undisturbed.

 

[andyrm66]

Boogie, I bought on of these used for like $60 years ago:
http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17514&cat=1113&page=1

I mix up kalk in a 44 gallon brute can, say once a month, and forget it. Its hooked up as an ATO, so it handles ATO duties as well and keeping alk in line. The key starting part is to figure out how much dkh you are using and "tuning" the system so to speak. Theres a little difference between summer and winter if you dont have central AC, with Central ac, my evap rates are about the same. Remember, trying to raise alk or Ca with Kalk doesnt work. but to hold it steady, once you find your usage is easy. Theres many other ways as well, a stirer, tunze ATO with their own kalk stiring system, etc. I like this pump as the kalk doesnt clog not eat away the pieces, with Toms lifter pumps and even the Tunze, you do have to factor in replacement pumps. Anyway you go it makes you like easier and tank more stable.

Wicked, glad that works for you, Im not by any means, going to tell you what does and doesnt work for you.

 

[miwoodar]

In the pursuit of perfection though I wanted more precis control so I hooked it up to a litermeter instead of a ATO. Now I add saturated water at a rate of 5.5 liters per day continuously throughout the day which is about my evaporation rate.

That's slick, Kris. Even easier than DIY two part and still super cheap.

I mix up kalk in a 44 gallon brute can, say once a month, and forget it. Its hooked up as an ATO, so it handles ATO duties as well and keeping alk in line. The key starting part is to figure out how much dkh you are using and "tuning" the system so to speak.

Again, very slick.

...much, much better than trying to divert a portion of the flow as I supposed above...

 

[Boogie]

Mark I have a Geo kalk stirrer and Tunze Osmolator ATO for sale on RC. I can sell it to you cheaper if you are interested in automating the process. PM if interested.

PM sent

...sorry if I've come off a bit aggressive. I'll take part of the blame for the escalation. My apologies.

Mark, given the following...
* your coral interests are not likely to ever max out the ability of kalkwasser (or match fullly saturated kalkwasser for that matter)
* that you're running your ATO through your RODI (if it's hooked up 100% of the time a nielsen reactor becomes problematic give the above)
* that you're interested in a set-it and forget it system

The good news...the cheapest approach is also the easiest. DIY two part. My 140 SPS is on track for $12/year.
* The instructions (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php)
* Dosing pump system (here's a cheap option...http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/drew-s-doser-peristaltic-dosing-pump.html)
* Containers (I'm on track for 53 days out of 2.5 gallon containers right now)
* Timer (I used this one because it's cheap, can be programmed to the minute, and I don't have a controller...http://www.google.com/products/cata...4&ei=ZlveTtn-KdTgggffgvD8CA&ved=0CCUQ8wIwAg#p)
* Consumables (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium)

I'm not saying this is THE route. This is just an option. If you decide to try it, I can help you dial it in...I built a spreadsheet based around Randy's DIY recipe that will allow you to plug in just a few numbers and it will tell you how long to run the timers.

Edit to add...I just saw that Kris posted his nielsen reactor. It can work too. Given that you would be dosing slowly through an ATO, it's much more forgiving. Your tank can, somewhat, self regulate through precipitation to the rocks, pumps, etc. It's a good approach but you'll need to make sure it's not too much. If it turned out to be such, you would need to mitigate in some way (maybe you could run only a portion of your top off through the reactor...I've never tried such a thing and can't comment as to whether or not it would be a good idea). Maybe Kris would have ideas on this?

This is exactly (aside from the article, good read there) what I was looking for. I will read the links here in a minute. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! Perfect answers to a non-perfect question. lol.

 

[djkms]

I am all about automation. My next quest is getting my Vodka and Vinegar dosing automated. Its tough though because almost all peristaltic pumps dose by the ml and not tenths of a ml which I need for vodka. I have finally found a pump I think though. There is a 10+ page review thread of them on RC. It can dose by the drop. Cool stuff!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marine-Magi...037?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415f9eb5fd

 

[miwoodar]

Now we're cooking with gas.

Good luck, Mark! Very happy to see your response(s)!

 

[Boogie]

Thank you all. THIS is the information I was hunting for. Thank you!

 

[miwoodar]

Have fun on your trip BTW. I'll live vicariously through you on this one.