Kent salt users
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I stopped using it after a pretty short run because my OCD couldn't handle the inconsistency but I can't say anything really every looked bad using it.
im an ESV salt guy. I really wish there were some others around these parts using it. I don't think I have ever met another local person from this club using ESV. It is expensive and probably the most work to mix up though so I can see why people don't. If anyone ever wants to get in on an ESV group buy I'd be down for at least half a pallet.
im an ESV salt guy. I really wish there were some others around these parts using it. I don't think I have ever met another local person from this club using ESV. It is expensive and probably the most work to mix up though so I can see why people don't. If anyone ever wants to get in on an ESV group buy I'd be down for at least half a pallet.
I use Microbe-lift. I had started using it last year and really liked it...but had a ton of Kent on hand and was tired of mixing 2 different salts weekly so I switched to using Kent exclusively on both tanks (previously, the Kent was being used in the 85g cube since it was a FOWLR at the time, and I was using Microbe-lift on my 20 gallon)
I like the Microbe-lift a lot though. Every batch mixes the same for me, and that the pass all the components through an equal size mesh which (they claim) prevents settling in the bucket. I've had consistent parameters between 2 buckets and with every mix. Since it might be more difficult to find locally here soon, I may be switching to Fritz, which is supposed to be the same salt without the carbon additive they put in the Microbe-lift.
I like the Microbe-lift a lot though. Every batch mixes the same for me, and that the pass all the components through an equal size mesh which (they claim) prevents settling in the bucket. I've had consistent parameters between 2 buckets and with every mix. Since it might be more difficult to find locally here soon, I may be switching to Fritz, which is supposed to be the same salt without the carbon additive they put in the Microbe-lift.
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Hmm I may have to look into it. So many had sworn by Kent salt, and not saying its bad, but ya the inconsistency is very annoying and I certainly dont like seeing numbers on the tank being so far out of range even if things in the tank seem to be doing fine. The problem/dilemma now though is that I have 3.5 boxes of kent now, so do I continue to use it till its gone and then switch salts (again), or sell of those and switch now? Going to take me quite a while to get through 3 boxes though since I only use about 10-15g a week.
Here is the response i got from Kent Marine to my question of I have a question in regard to your salt mix. We are finding in our reef club that there is a huge inconsistency between bags of salt mix and was wondering why that is? Thanks
I asked our head lab technician for a response to your question. Below is his response in black font. Being a reef hobbyist of 25 years and a degree in Marine Biology this does make perfect sense to me. Aeration of the water will also alter the pH of the water as any CO2 is out-gassed and more O2 diffuses into the water. The pH tends to rise a bit after being aerated for a period of time.
There are a lot of variables in mixing salt that account for discrepancies between batch to batch, bucket to bucket (in the same batch), and even from top of bucket to bottom of bucket.
1. The main ingredient in any brand of salt is sodium chloride. Sodium chloride is a mined mineral. It is NEVER 100% sodium chloride. It comes straight out of the ground and has different levels of minerals within it depending on where it was mined (even within the same quarry). A batch formula is made to the same measurements of ingredients every time and always assumes that each ingredient is 100% pure (which it never is). Each ingredient will have different levels of trace minerals in it. It is impossible to account for these discrepancies in production. This is the main reason why you see variations from one batch to the next.
2. Salt is a hygroscopic material that absorbs water vapor from the air. If you weigh out 35.5 grams of perfectly dry salt and dissolve it in 1 liter of water it should have a salinity of 35.5 ppt. However, since the salt normally has some amount of water in it, that is not often the case and the salinity will actually be lower because the absorbed water does not contribute to salinity. Adding more salt will raise the salinity but also raises calcium and magnesium levels. Inaccurate measurements of salinity are probably the second most common reason for differences in calcium and magnesium levels. If you are not comparing seawater made to the exact same salinity each time then you will have differences in calcium, magnesium, and carbonate hardness. Carbonate hardness is also pH dependent which can vary depending on the levels of dissolved carbon dioxide in the water.
3. Different minerals within the salt mix have different particle sizes and densities. The longer a bag or bucket has been around and shaken or vibrated will cause the particles to stratify. Smaller grain sizes tend to move to the bottom and larger grains to the top. Denser materials tend to move to the bottom also. This results in the salt taken from the top of a bucket having different values than the bottom. This is most common with calcium and magnesium. The lighter magnesium chloride tends to move to the top (as it starts out in a low density flake form before grinding) and the high density calcium chloride tends to move to the bottom (as it starts in a high density pellet before grinding).
The truth is that all of these variables have been occurring with all salt brands for decades and are perfectly normal and (except in extreme cases) not going to cause any noticeable difference in the aquarium. As long as the aquarium stays within a nominal range of values the animals and corals within will not be affected.
Andy
I asked our head lab technician for a response to your question. Below is his response in black font. Being a reef hobbyist of 25 years and a degree in Marine Biology this does make perfect sense to me. Aeration of the water will also alter the pH of the water as any CO2 is out-gassed and more O2 diffuses into the water. The pH tends to rise a bit after being aerated for a period of time.
There are a lot of variables in mixing salt that account for discrepancies between batch to batch, bucket to bucket (in the same batch), and even from top of bucket to bottom of bucket.
1. The main ingredient in any brand of salt is sodium chloride. Sodium chloride is a mined mineral. It is NEVER 100% sodium chloride. It comes straight out of the ground and has different levels of minerals within it depending on where it was mined (even within the same quarry). A batch formula is made to the same measurements of ingredients every time and always assumes that each ingredient is 100% pure (which it never is). Each ingredient will have different levels of trace minerals in it. It is impossible to account for these discrepancies in production. This is the main reason why you see variations from one batch to the next.
2. Salt is a hygroscopic material that absorbs water vapor from the air. If you weigh out 35.5 grams of perfectly dry salt and dissolve it in 1 liter of water it should have a salinity of 35.5 ppt. However, since the salt normally has some amount of water in it, that is not often the case and the salinity will actually be lower because the absorbed water does not contribute to salinity. Adding more salt will raise the salinity but also raises calcium and magnesium levels. Inaccurate measurements of salinity are probably the second most common reason for differences in calcium and magnesium levels. If you are not comparing seawater made to the exact same salinity each time then you will have differences in calcium, magnesium, and carbonate hardness. Carbonate hardness is also pH dependent which can vary depending on the levels of dissolved carbon dioxide in the water.
3. Different minerals within the salt mix have different particle sizes and densities. The longer a bag or bucket has been around and shaken or vibrated will cause the particles to stratify. Smaller grain sizes tend to move to the bottom and larger grains to the top. Denser materials tend to move to the bottom also. This results in the salt taken from the top of a bucket having different values than the bottom. This is most common with calcium and magnesium. The lighter magnesium chloride tends to move to the top (as it starts out in a low density flake form before grinding) and the high density calcium chloride tends to move to the bottom (as it starts in a high density pellet before grinding).
The truth is that all of these variables have been occurring with all salt brands for decades and are perfectly normal and (except in extreme cases) not going to cause any noticeable difference in the aquarium. As long as the aquarium stays within a nominal range of values the animals and corals within will not be affected.
Andy
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Thanks for reaching out to Kent deboy!!! I'm glad they opted to provide a response, here are some follow-up thoughts...
Definitely understandable, and that's the reason I switched salts. Some of the more expensive brands use manufactured pharmaceutical grade components rather than salt collected via quarries or evaporation of NSW. The end result is higher purity. Here are a couple interesting links I've had bookmarked for a long while but never shared for some silly reason:
ReefCentral discussion regarding salt collection: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1845009 - the takeaway, IMO, is that companies should be testing for consistency and adjusting the mix accordingly
This link was taken down, so I had to pull it from an archive...but this pdf is a MUST READ if you really are interested in comparing salts*: http://web.archive.org/web/20111128132714/http://aquariumwatertesting.com/AWT_Salt_Analysis_0208.pdf
When all is said and done though, if Kent is aware of the potential variability...why not address it? Not bashing, just a legit question. I could see a slight difference...but an alkalinity measurement of 7 vs 10 is significant. Why not make a batch of salt, measure the parameters, and adjust the salt? If that is a costly step (which I would assume it is), perhaps this is a classic case of "you get what you pay for".
This only addresses variances caused by mixing your salt according to volume (or weight) of water and the weight of the salt. If you mix using a calibrated refractometer...then your salinity wouldn't fluctuate and you should not be seeing these large differences. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding this...the fact is that I was measuring the exact same salinity each time, so why the differences?
And this is why it's always difficult to mix a small volume of saltwater for small water changes. You do end up with fluctuations between each salt mix that you make. However, I wasn't seeing variations between each mix as I was using about 3/4 of a bag each time I mixed my salt. I was seeing fluctuations between boxes...as many of us here were. Might as well reiterate that the salt I switched to says they pass all the minerals through an equal sized mesh, which (they claim) prevents the issue. I alluded to this earlier...but in the end that helps the problem, although it doesn't solve it completely due to particle density, which the rep at Kent pointed out. So that problem isn't entirely solved, but it's a step in the right direction IMO, and I've never had to roll my microbe-lift buckets more than once when I first get them.
Magnesium and Calcium being "off the charts" is still a concern...for me at least. Sure they stayed consistent, but they were well outside of the range of NSW.
FWIW...I know a lot of people use Kent, have for years, and are extremely happy with it. I just had very mixed results with it, and gave it a year before I gave up and switched to another salt.
* That pdf I linked is from 07/08...haven't found a more recent version, but I may dig around and see if one exists. I'm sure many of those salt mixes have changed, but it should at least give you an idea of where some of the different brands fall. I'd still read it, but take the info provided with...a grain of salt. (badum dum tss)
Definitely understandable, and that's the reason I switched salts. Some of the more expensive brands use manufactured pharmaceutical grade components rather than salt collected via quarries or evaporation of NSW. The end result is higher purity. Here are a couple interesting links I've had bookmarked for a long while but never shared for some silly reason:
ReefCentral discussion regarding salt collection: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1845009 - the takeaway, IMO, is that companies should be testing for consistency and adjusting the mix accordingly
This link was taken down, so I had to pull it from an archive...but this pdf is a MUST READ if you really are interested in comparing salts*: http://web.archive.org/web/20111128132714/http://aquariumwatertesting.com/AWT_Salt_Analysis_0208.pdf
When all is said and done though, if Kent is aware of the potential variability...why not address it? Not bashing, just a legit question. I could see a slight difference...but an alkalinity measurement of 7 vs 10 is significant. Why not make a batch of salt, measure the parameters, and adjust the salt? If that is a costly step (which I would assume it is), perhaps this is a classic case of "you get what you pay for".
This only addresses variances caused by mixing your salt according to volume (or weight) of water and the weight of the salt. If you mix using a calibrated refractometer...then your salinity wouldn't fluctuate and you should not be seeing these large differences. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding this...the fact is that I was measuring the exact same salinity each time, so why the differences?
And this is why it's always difficult to mix a small volume of saltwater for small water changes. You do end up with fluctuations between each salt mix that you make. However, I wasn't seeing variations between each mix as I was using about 3/4 of a bag each time I mixed my salt. I was seeing fluctuations between boxes...as many of us here were. Might as well reiterate that the salt I switched to says they pass all the minerals through an equal sized mesh, which (they claim) prevents the issue. I alluded to this earlier...but in the end that helps the problem, although it doesn't solve it completely due to particle density, which the rep at Kent pointed out. So that problem isn't entirely solved, but it's a step in the right direction IMO, and I've never had to roll my microbe-lift buckets more than once when I first get them.
Magnesium and Calcium being "off the charts" is still a concern...for me at least. Sure they stayed consistent, but they were well outside of the range of NSW.
FWIW...I know a lot of people use Kent, have for years, and are extremely happy with it. I just had very mixed results with it, and gave it a year before I gave up and switched to another salt.
* That pdf I linked is from 07/08...haven't found a more recent version, but I may dig around and see if one exists. I'm sure many of those salt mixes have changed, but it should at least give you an idea of where some of the different brands fall. I'd still read it, but take the info provided with...a grain of salt. (badum dum tss)
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SynDen
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Thanks Deboy for that but this brings up the same points/concerns that Khalis has pointed out. And thanks for the links, I will certainly read those over tonight.
I for example mix 1 full bag and little more to get the exact same salinity everytime. I aerate heavily via powerhead and airstone and heat to 79degrees, then let sit for 48+ hours before using, but yet still get varied differences from bag to bag. Since I am using a whole bag at a time, any settling issues should be rendered invalid. I personally would like to see numbers more in line with NSW and not off the charts like I am seeing now.
I for example mix 1 full bag and little more to get the exact same salinity everytime. I aerate heavily via powerhead and airstone and heat to 79degrees, then let sit for 48+ hours before using, but yet still get varied differences from bag to bag. Since I am using a whole bag at a time, any settling issues should be rendered invalid. I personally would like to see numbers more in line with NSW and not off the charts like I am seeing now.
About two months ago I ran out of my Fritz reef salt. I had a partial box of kent stashed in the fish room for "emergencies", so I decided to use it. I have been fighting like heck to keep my ALK above 4 dkh! Frankly I think that is why I switched to Fritz in the first place. Within 1 month of using the Kent all my coraline algae fell off the back wall of my tank and I have been buffering like a mad man to keep Mag and Alk in check. Needless to say I went out yesterday and bought another box of Fritz....:censored:
SynDen
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