LFS & Vendors - What are your procedures?

[djkms]

D&G Had mentioned in another thread that after 30 years we should expect healthy livestock from them (or something along those lines, sorry I know its not word for word). So I asked in that thread what their procedures are to insure healthy livestock but didnt receive a reply.

So now I am asking EVERY fish store or Vendor here. What do you do to insure healthy livestock before selling to the public? I understand that quarantine and such ultimatly rests with us but I am curious to see what the stores and vendors are doing to minimize risk and maximize health for their livestock.

How are you acclimating fish? Quarantining?

Corals? Dipping?

Inverts?

For example I know Elite quarantines their fish in the back for 1 week before putting them on the floor (or is it 2 weeks?) Do you treat the fish while in the q tanks? What about corals? Dipping? Etc.

I also know Aquamart treats their tanks with copper, which is always in their fish system from what I understand.

Will with Premier, I know you should speak up on this because your method for healthy livestock is great.

D&G you say 30 years in the business, this is something to be proud of, what do you guys do to insure healthy livestock?

Lets hear what you guys do, the info can also help us members with tips and such you learned over the years.

 

[jgonzz]

I float all corals to temp, put them in a tote and treat them with coral rx. Then I rinse them in sw inspect them and pull off any weird things then place them in the tanks

For fish I float to temp, put them in buckets or containers and run drip lines and drip them till the water is double, net them and put them in the tanks.

 

[DGPets]

Sorry, had a day off, so didn't have a chance to respond to the other thread yet.

We do several things:

For Fish:
Firstly, we are EXTREMELY picky about our Fish and Coral suppliers, if the fish aren't healthy, or if bag water is foul, or out of our prefered chemistry ranges, we don't order from them. We pay a little more, but it's worth it for higher quality and healthier live stock.

We Float the bags and Temp Acclimate until temps are balanced. While floating, we add a little Seachem Prime to the bag as soon as it's open to prevent Ammonia spikes as Oxygen is introduced to the bag. Ammonia in the bag until this point is in the form of Ammonium, which is far less toxic than Ammonia.
As soon as the bag is opened, PH increases as Oxygen is introduced, and Ammonium converts back to Ammonia. Bad News! Prime binds and ties up the Ammonia back to less toxic Ammonium.
We also add some Seachem StressGuard to the bag as a dip, which aids in Slime Coat production, as well as including polymers which bind to any open wounds, abrassions, or injuries like a bandaid, and act to sanitize these vulnerable areas.

Once temp is equalized and dips are done, almost all bag water is disposed of, and fish are slid from the bag into their new temporary home. By avoiding nets, we avoid a lot of fin and scale damage.
Now we watch all new fish like hawks, Dips for illness or medication are done as needed, as well as feeding Rod's Food or Live Brine soaked in Metronidazole and Focus if needed. We may break out some Prazi Pro if warrented.
We keep our temps, PH, and Specific Gravity a hair low in tanks that new fish go into to prevent shock from increases in the same.

All new fish get as much live brine, and a mix of Rod's Food Original, Pacific Plankton, and Garlic Guard, as we can get them to eat.
We used to use copper in many systems, but have discontinued it in favor of more targeted medications and treatments, which don't interact well with Copper.
The date every Fish or Coral arrives is on each price tag, so you can see how long we've had them.
If someone wants to buy one fresh out of the shipping box, we recommend against it, but it's up to them.

For Corals:
See above about being picky with suppliers, if we EVER get a pest, etc from them, we never order from them again. We make this clear up front with any new supplier.
Corals from trusted suppliers with a proven track record are fast tracked, floated to acclimate, possibly given a quick Reef Dip depending on condition, then introduced to tank.
Corals from hobbyists and any other vendors never touch our tanks with out a longer Reef Dip, a Flat Worm Exit Dip, and occasionally a Furan 2 dip depending on species and condition.

All of our systems are individual seperate systems, with independent water supplies, which is quite a bit more work, but makes it far easier to QT and contain any illness, and keep it out of other systems if needed.

We also drive down to the airport, and meet the incoming shipment right off the plane. This reduces stress from banging around in the back of a UPS/FedEx truck etc for a day or more, and avoids the boxes sitting on cold concrete for hours at a time.
Typically, our shipments are in the box for 6-12 hours tops before we get them into our systems.

I think that covers most of it with out giving away and trade secrets.

Any other questions, let us know.

 

[jgonzz]

Every supplier I have ever been to has pests, and I have been to most all of them.

 

[spstimie]

Kris, this book is probably the best recommendation for what we should be doing as hobbyists. It has the basic qt procedures that were used at Aquamart when I was there. And what Will is probably using at Premier. Of course we both modified what was in the book.

The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook: The Essential Guide to Keeping Saltwater Species Alive and Thriving
http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Fish-Health-Feeding-Handbook/dp/1890087955

This book came out after Will passed the qt procedures down to me, but it is really good information from purchase through qt at every level.

 

[DGPets]

We used to run into Clove Polyp Eating Nudis and Zoa Nudis after dipping from a certain vendor, we don't order from them anymore.

We haven't gotten a single pest off of anything from our current suppliers after dipping, ever.

They're the keepers and its a pretty short list.
Maybe they dip everything before shipping to us, because they know we won't tolerate it.
Ordering almost entirely Aquacultured Corals recently probably hasn't hurt either.
We've been pest free in all our coral systems for as long as I can remember.

 

[mikejrice]

We are very selective about the resources we use to obtain our livestock, we can proudly say that we order 99% of our fish from Quality Marine. We pay more, but we receive much healthier fish. Every once in a while we will order fish from another vendor, but it is certainly a gamble on our end. Our prices are always based on what we pay. We have a target mark-up, and if you see prices fluctuate in our store, that is because we got a good deal, and therefore, so do you! Sometimes, we can’t even hit that target mark-up with what we pay for some of these fish. We always use the airline carrier that stays open until the last plane has landed. With that being said, the shipments go something like this… We pick up the shipments as they land and take them back to the store.

Fish Quarantine: Each 40g breeder is its own system with a SWC HOB skimmer/filter. We practice an “all in – all out” policy. When the fish are added to that tank, no other tank mates go into it until the 7 days of QT is over. We treat each individual tank as necessary. With no signs of illness, the tank is not treated at all, with copper or anything else. When signs of disease do appear, the tank is treated individually for the specific issues we are observing… fungal, bacterial, parasites, etc. We believe that exposure to copper is a contributing factor to some other viral issues, and we only treat with copper when absolutely necessary. Each QT tank is prepped as follows: if there was any treatment for the shipment prior, it is bleached for 24 hrs, followed by a 100% water change, Prime, and Start Smart. It is filled with water at a salinity of 1.009. If the tank had no prior issues with the last shipment, we do a 75% water change, and ultimately end up with the 1.009 salinity as well.

On shipment day, the fish are placed into these tanks to float directly from the box. We do not open the bags, thus avoiding the PH and ammonia issues. When proper temperature is obtained, we transfer just the fish into the QT tanks. We carefully observe each fish that is in QT for that week and ensure everyone is eating and appears 100% healthy before they are released into our display tanks on the sales floor.

When health issues arise, we have an entire arsenal of medicines, dips, and procedures that we pull out. We aren’t always successful, but without the medical degree necessary to truly diagnose and treat, we do our best. We were hobbyists going into this, and so we attended the Ornamental Fish Health Symposium at the University of New England last summer. Dr. Edward J. Noga was one of the speakers there, and taught us one-on-one how to attempt to diagnose some of these health issues using physical signs, microscopes, etc.

QT is attended to daily. We do a 20-25% water change on each tank, replacement water being 1.025 salinity. Over the course of the 7 days, the tank ultimately reaches approximately 1.020, which is the salinity of the display tanks. If the tank is medically treated, we follow the specific instructions for that particular tank. (ie.. re-dose meds & water change). We had the pleasure of extended conversations with Lance Ichinotsubo, and his beautiful wife Mikki at the Fish Health Symposium. Most of our QT procedures we adopted from them. They have over 30yrs experience in both retail and service, as well as being the co-author of the well known book The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook. Changing our QT procedures to this regime has made significant differences in the health of our fish. – Thank you Lance and Mikki!

With all these steps involved, unfortunately we still have health issues that either transfer to the display tanks, or appear there. When those situations arise, one thing is always certain. If we are concerned about the health of a fish, we will not sell it, and have that conversation with the interested customer. Some customers QT themselves, and aren’t too worried about some of the situations they may see, and choose to purchase the fish anyway. Regardless, decisions have to be made at that point; move them back to QT, or treat the whole display system (we have 5 separate systems on the floor). Stress to the fish is so important, so sometimes we choose to leave them be and treat the entire system. It is always ultimately the hobbyist’s responsibility to educate themselves, know what they are looking at and for, compatibility, etc. We are always willing to help, and have no problem saying that we are worried about a specific fish and wouldn’t sell it. We are not here just to make the buck, we are here because we are truly passionate about the animals and the hobby. Nutrition is a key factor in the health of fish. We have mixed our own food from early on, and had many customers want to purchase it. We began packaging it for resale and offering it regularly in our store as Elite Reef Cuisine. It’s a mixture of top brand foods, rinsed with RODI water, strained, and portioned out. We add Brightwell Garlic Power and AminOmega for added benefits. When fish aren’t eating in QT, we usually start by offering them gut-loaded live brine or ghost shrimp. We then begin incorporating our own food mix with the live, and usually with great success wean them off the live foods. Other fish just have specific needs, and we of course cater to them as well.

Coral: Each and every coral is dipped for it’s predatory pest prior to entry into our systems. Softies are treated separately than LPS and SPS with different dips. No dip, to our knowledge, effectively removes pest eggs, so we also routinely treat our coral flats for pests (ie.. Flatworm Exit, Interceptor, PraziPro, etc.) If we move a coral from one system to another, it is re-dipped before entering another system. ALL livestock from our customers are treated exactly the same as any other specimen we receive. Unfortunately, aiptasia seems to be an issue we struggle to keep at bay. We can’t use shrimp to keep them away, as the routine Interceptor (for red bugs) kills them, and they are too difficult to catch in those coral flats. We regularly “treat” aiptasia with kalk or a similar product in an attempt to reduce the numbers. Evil aiptasia….

Every 3 mo, we take everything out of the coral flats, and scrub them all down while the corals are all dipping in a broad spectrum dip.
On a daily basis, we keep our eye on corals that don’t seem to be doing so well. We do what we can to assist in aiding them back to health with tissue removal, antiseptic, etc.

Inverts: All inverts are drip acclimated until they reach proper water parameters. Depending on the invert, some acclimation can take the better part of the day (starfish, for instance).

In all of this, we truly believe that honesty is the best policy. If we know that a certain animal has behavioral issues or health issues, we will always inform a customer, if not simply display them as such… “known coral eater”. We don’t ever set out to set up a customer for failure by withholding such knowledge. With that being said, as a hobbyist, please follow good husbandry practices yourselves; Research… check compatibility…don’t EVER add “their” water to yours…keep them healthy, feed them a variety of healthy and nutritious foods…dip your corals… QT your fish/corals… There are things that the hobbyist can control; water quality, where specimens are obtained from, and providing them with the nutrients to maintain proper health. Pathogens are less controllable, but if you choose good healthy livestock, ensure their water quality to be adequate, and feed them a diet that is proper for their survival, you will be doing everything that you can to meet their needs so they can be healthy.

 

[DGPets]

In all of this, we truly believe that honesty is the best policy. If we know that a certain animal has behavioral issues or health issues, we will always inform a customer, if not simply display them as such… “known coral eater”. We don’t ever set out to set up a customer for failure by withholding such knowledge. With that being said, as a hobbyist, please follow good husbandry practices yourselves; Research… check compatibility…don’t EVER add “their” water to yours…keep them healthy, feed them a variety of healthy and nutritious foods…dip your corals… QT your fish/corals… There are things that the hobbyist can control; water quality, where specimens are obtained from, and providing them with the nutrients to maintain proper health. Pathogens are less controllable, but if you choose good healthy livestock, ensure their water quality to be adequate, and feed them a diet that is proper for their survival, you will be doing everything that you can to meet their needs so they can be healthy.

+1
Well Said.

 

[Cake_Boss]

Question, isn't it more about what you do afterwards than the supplier?

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[DGPets]

The difference between suppliers can be dramatic.

They all have different holding and shipping methods, just like the LFS's do.

 

[rmougey]

Question, isn't it more about what you do afterwards than the supplier?

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The supplier, and the chain of custody getting there, has the biggest impact on the health of the fish that ultimately end up in our tanks. That's why when folks shop purely on price, thinking that flame angel A is the same as flame angel B, they often do themselves a disservice.

All suppliers and LFS have periodic issues; however a sustained track record of poor performance negates the attractiveness of a cheap animal.

It's nice to see the effort put into critters once they land at the retailer. Even with all of the well described acclimation methods, you should still QT your own livestock.

 

[djkms]

This is good info, thanks guys.

D&G - I read your whole post and see that you have acclimation procedures in place. Do you quarantine your livestock before placing it for sale or is it for sale as soon as its acclimated?

Elite - A lot of good info there. I really like the fact that you watch your fish for a week before putting it on the sales floor. This takes a lot of time, dedication and money to go this extra step and I commend you guys for that. I also must say that it is awesome that your supplier is Quality Marine! This I did not know but I do know they are one of the best livestock wholesalers hands down.

Thank you everyone who posted here and I really appreciate the time you took to let all of us know a little bit of the behind the scenes procedures you take to insure healthy livestock.

I do agree with Rob that we should quarantine all our own livestock but lets face it, not many do.