Lowest cost and easiest way to eliminate green hair, bubble, turf and slime algae
- Thread starter SantaMonicaHelp
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So I have been planning for my next build and I think I will go with an ATS, but I'm not sure if I want to go with an upflow or the trickle down version, and if I want to use red led's on both side or one. Was thinking about building something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuvZVgEEZYg
sethsolomon;362448 said:
Matt, you are going to need a 3 foot trickle down for that next tank 
Yeah, really liking the trickle/waterfall version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6kA3xDPaM
I like it too, I found a video from a guy who makes and sells a very well developed version of this design. Lucky for us he posted a product demo where he goes over how it works, unfortunately for him he goes into too much detail including part numbers and where he sources parts.... Soooooo, i think I will just build something similar and keep the $399 he charges for a unit 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTZMmU4tiqE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTZMmU4tiqE
Anyone have some recommendations for a 660nm led?
I've seen a lot about nitrate reduction in this thread. Anyone have feedback about phosphates? I saw the post about phosphate leaching from the rocks and leading to hair on the rocks. I'm looking for experience with phosphate reduction backed by water testing...
I've seen a lot about nitrate reduction in this thread. Anyone have feedback about phosphates? I saw the post about phosphate leaching from the rocks and leading to hair on the rocks. I'm looking for experience with phosphate reduction backed by water testing...
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Phosphates will leach from your rocks because your rocks naturally absorb this, until they cant absorb any more, and then it releases it back into the tank. This is part of the complicated part that live rock plays in the marine aquarium, but testing for these is very difficult even with lab equipment and near impossible for a hobbyists to get reliable accurate results
http://www.rapidled.com/cree-xp-e-photo-red-660nm-led/
http://www.rapidled.com/cree-xp-e-photo-red-660nm-led/
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Seems to be mixed reviews on phosphate removal. I wasn't suggesting that we measure the phosphate in the rocks. When skimming this thread on mobile, I just saw the one post about phosphate leaching, but on further review, lots of folks are claiming lowered phosphates...
I toyed with the idea of a chaeto refugium until I read that you basically need a refugium as large as your tank to be effective. This ATS seems to have promise. And it could be so easy if there was a decent cheap 660 red bulb that didn't require an LED DIY....
These lights seem to be the cheapest thing going, but a long skinny strip would be better for my application (4"x12")
I toyed with the idea of a chaeto refugium until I read that you basically need a refugium as large as your tank to be effective. This ATS seems to have promise. And it could be so easy if there was a decent cheap 660 red bulb that didn't require an LED DIY....
These lights seem to be the cheapest thing going, but a long skinny strip would be better for my application (4"x12")
This may help:
Phosphate flow out of rocks
Many people, when they get their scrubber running for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate have gone lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).
Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, again, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.
Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object, and your windows as the scrubber. As the scrubber pulls phosphate out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water into the scrubber. This continues until the phosphate levels in the rocks and water are level again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow.
This flow causes an interesting thing to happen. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to feed algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where there is light. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that the algae in the scrubber was leaking out and attaching to your rocks. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:
1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.
2. The scrubber is new, maybe only a few months old, and has recently started to grow well.
3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.
4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.
5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.
Since skimmers, filter socks, etc don't remove any nitrate and phosphate, and waterchanges and macro's in a fuge don't remove much, most people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough, it does. How long does it continue? For 2 months to a year, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how strong your scrubber is, and how many other phosphate-removing filters you have (GFO, carbon dosing, etc). But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.
Phosphate flow out of rocks
Many people, when they get their scrubber running for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate have gone lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).
Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, again, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.
Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object, and your windows as the scrubber. As the scrubber pulls phosphate out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water into the scrubber. This continues until the phosphate levels in the rocks and water are level again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow.
This flow causes an interesting thing to happen. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to feed algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where there is light. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that the algae in the scrubber was leaking out and attaching to your rocks. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:
1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.
2. The scrubber is new, maybe only a few months old, and has recently started to grow well.
3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.
4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.
5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.
Since skimmers, filter socks, etc don't remove any nitrate and phosphate, and waterchanges and macro's in a fuge don't remove much, most people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough, it does. How long does it continue? For 2 months to a year, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how strong your scrubber is, and how many other phosphate-removing filters you have (GFO, carbon dosing, etc). But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.
Shade cloth:
All new scrubbers which use white growth surfaces should have a black cloth placed over some of the LEDs for the first week or two. Because the all-white interior reflects so much light, when it is new the light levels are way above the highest amount that can grow anything. Once growth starts, the white surfaces get covered with growth and the total light levels drop, and the cloth can be removed. Any cloth, stocking, or t-shirt can work; just don't melt the cloth with hot LEDs
This covering of the lights can be done by anyone, on any scrubber, even waterfalls. Waterfalls use plastic canvas which has more holes than material, and they are not in white compartments, so the light levels when new are not too high. But it still might help if a new screen stays completely empty.
The reason for a white colors of the screen, of course, is too allow more light to reach the base of the growth that does the attaching. As the growth gets thicker, the bottom layers will almost be in darkness, so the white surface doubles the light there by reflecting instead of absorbing the light.
Put the shade cloth about 2/3 or 3/4 over the lights; this way you can see which part grows better: the covered, or uncovered.
All new scrubbers which use white growth surfaces should have a black cloth placed over some of the LEDs for the first week or two. Because the all-white interior reflects so much light, when it is new the light levels are way above the highest amount that can grow anything. Once growth starts, the white surfaces get covered with growth and the total light levels drop, and the cloth can be removed. Any cloth, stocking, or t-shirt can work; just don't melt the cloth with hot LEDs
This covering of the lights can be done by anyone, on any scrubber, even waterfalls. Waterfalls use plastic canvas which has more holes than material, and they are not in white compartments, so the light levels when new are not too high. But it still might help if a new screen stays completely empty.
The reason for a white colors of the screen, of course, is too allow more light to reach the base of the growth that does the attaching. As the growth gets thicker, the bottom layers will almost be in darkness, so the white surface doubles the light there by reflecting instead of absorbing the light.
Put the shade cloth about 2/3 or 3/4 over the lights; this way you can see which part grows better: the covered, or uncovered.
Scrubbers compared to refugiums
If you are starting a new tank, then the obvious difference is that a scrubber gives you the option of not having a fuge at all. There are other uses for a sump/fuge of course, but we'll only cover the filtration concerns here.
A not-so-obvious difference of scrubbers compared to refugiums is that a scrubber, if run with a fuge with macros, will kill the macros even though the macros are much larger. This is because the scrubber thinks the macros are nuisance algae. Some people do run both together without killing the macros, but this is because their scrubber is not strong enough, and actually the macro might even be slowing down the scrubber because the scrubber thinks it has to remove the macro, along with the nutrients in the water, and the nuisance algae in the display too.
But assuming you have to decide on either a fuge or a scrubber (not both)...
o Filtration with algae is proportional photosynthesis, which is proportional to light X air water turbulent flow X attachment. Meaning, stronger light grows more algae; stronger air/water interface turbulence grows more algae; and stronger attachment lets more algae grow without detaching and floating away. A scrubber is thus designed to maximize Light, Turbulence, and Attachment.
o The main problem with macros in a refugium is the self-shading that the macros do. Any part of the macro which is not directly in front of the light at any moment is not filtering much. And any macro inside of a "ball" of macro (like chaeto) is self-shaded all the time. Only the surface macro that is directly in front of the light is doing any real filtering. A scrubber is designed to have all the algae in front of the light at all times. Rotating macro does not solve the problem because the time that the macro is rotated away from the light is time that the macro is not filtering. This is why it takes a much larger size of chaeto to do the same filtering as a scrubber, and why a scrubber will kill macro.
o Self-flow-blocking is another problem of macros in a refugium, for the same reason as light-blocking. And the thicker the "ball" of macro, the worse the flow-blocking becomes. A ball of macro that stays the same size is doing no filtering.
o Particle trapping is another result of a ball of macro. These particles need to cycle back around to feed the corals, but instead they get trapped in the macro and rot, and in doing so they block even more flow and light.
o With a scrubber, there is very little water standing in the way of the light. Also, the light is (or should be) very close to the scrubber... 4 inches (10cm) or less. The power of light varies with the inverse square of the distance, so going from 8" to 4" actually gives you 4X the power, not 2X. And the nutrient removal power of algae is proportional to the power of the light, because it's the photosynthesis that is doing the filtering.
o Rapid flow across the algae in a scrubber gives more delivery of nutrients, compared to the slow moving water in a fuge. Filtering is proportion to nutrient going into and out of the surface of the algae.
o The turbulence of water moving over the sections of algae in a scrubber helps to remove the boundary layer of water around the algae. This boundary layer slows the transfer of metabolites in and out of the algae. There is no turbulence in a fuge (if there were, you'd have waves and bubbles). The interface between the air and water is what provides the most turbulence and boundary layer removal; there is no air/water interface in macros. Turbulence is provided by bubbles, or waterfalls, or splashes.
o Scrubbers do not let food particles settle and rot like a refugium does; most particles flow right out of the scrubber.
o Scrubbers do not (if cleaned properly) release algal strands into display, like chaeto does.
o Scrubbers do not go sexual, like caulerpa can.
o Scrubbers do grow lots of pods; more than was previously thought, especially if not cleaned with freshwater.
o Scrubbers don't, obviously, provide a place for snails and crabs, etc.
However, if you already have a sump with an empty compartment, and you don't mind using all of it and putting a light over it, then maybe it's easier and cheaper to try macros first.
If you are starting a new tank, then the obvious difference is that a scrubber gives you the option of not having a fuge at all. There are other uses for a sump/fuge of course, but we'll only cover the filtration concerns here.
A not-so-obvious difference of scrubbers compared to refugiums is that a scrubber, if run with a fuge with macros, will kill the macros even though the macros are much larger. This is because the scrubber thinks the macros are nuisance algae. Some people do run both together without killing the macros, but this is because their scrubber is not strong enough, and actually the macro might even be slowing down the scrubber because the scrubber thinks it has to remove the macro, along with the nutrients in the water, and the nuisance algae in the display too.
But assuming you have to decide on either a fuge or a scrubber (not both)...
o Filtration with algae is proportional photosynthesis, which is proportional to light X air water turbulent flow X attachment. Meaning, stronger light grows more algae; stronger air/water interface turbulence grows more algae; and stronger attachment lets more algae grow without detaching and floating away. A scrubber is thus designed to maximize Light, Turbulence, and Attachment.
o The main problem with macros in a refugium is the self-shading that the macros do. Any part of the macro which is not directly in front of the light at any moment is not filtering much. And any macro inside of a "ball" of macro (like chaeto) is self-shaded all the time. Only the surface macro that is directly in front of the light is doing any real filtering. A scrubber is designed to have all the algae in front of the light at all times. Rotating macro does not solve the problem because the time that the macro is rotated away from the light is time that the macro is not filtering. This is why it takes a much larger size of chaeto to do the same filtering as a scrubber, and why a scrubber will kill macro.
o Self-flow-blocking is another problem of macros in a refugium, for the same reason as light-blocking. And the thicker the "ball" of macro, the worse the flow-blocking becomes. A ball of macro that stays the same size is doing no filtering.
o Particle trapping is another result of a ball of macro. These particles need to cycle back around to feed the corals, but instead they get trapped in the macro and rot, and in doing so they block even more flow and light.
o With a scrubber, there is very little water standing in the way of the light. Also, the light is (or should be) very close to the scrubber... 4 inches (10cm) or less. The power of light varies with the inverse square of the distance, so going from 8" to 4" actually gives you 4X the power, not 2X. And the nutrient removal power of algae is proportional to the power of the light, because it's the photosynthesis that is doing the filtering.
o Rapid flow across the algae in a scrubber gives more delivery of nutrients, compared to the slow moving water in a fuge. Filtering is proportion to nutrient going into and out of the surface of the algae.
o The turbulence of water moving over the sections of algae in a scrubber helps to remove the boundary layer of water around the algae. This boundary layer slows the transfer of metabolites in and out of the algae. There is no turbulence in a fuge (if there were, you'd have waves and bubbles). The interface between the air and water is what provides the most turbulence and boundary layer removal; there is no air/water interface in macros. Turbulence is provided by bubbles, or waterfalls, or splashes.
o Scrubbers do not let food particles settle and rot like a refugium does; most particles flow right out of the scrubber.
o Scrubbers do not (if cleaned properly) release algal strands into display, like chaeto does.
o Scrubbers do not go sexual, like caulerpa can.
o Scrubbers do grow lots of pods; more than was previously thought, especially if not cleaned with freshwater.
o Scrubbers don't, obviously, provide a place for snails and crabs, etc.
However, if you already have a sump with an empty compartment, and you don't mind using all of it and putting a light over it, then maybe it's easier and cheaper to try macros first.