Newbie lighting question

[Matthew]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm concentrating my search to LEDs, just need to decide how deep to go in.

Cake boss, I appreciate the concern for the fishes well being. I'm sure there are a lot of newbies who jump in all willy-nilly and just throw some fish together because they are pretty. I'm not one of those people. I have been researching the Humuhumu (rectangle) for 12 years, in case I didn't make the move out to Hawaii I wanted to make sure I could keep a happy healthy fish at home ( note my rare cat avatar pet, who can stare into a mans soul, spoiled like all my pets have always been ). I have read countless stories, forums, books and spoke to countless people with experience keeping triggers. While I would love to buy a huge beautiful tank, that's just not reality. As a gold miner, I literally dig my paycheck from the ground, by hand, needless to say I do not have a ton of "hobby money". My 90 gallon tank is being set up specifically to house 3 small to medium triggers. Understanding the growth rate of these species I realize that I will have about two years to upgrade for the hawaiian black and 4 years for the rectangle and Picasso. I realize there is a chance they will not play nice (a chance with almost any fish), but the successful stories of those three playing nice easily outnumber the horror stories. Biggest problem with those three together is introduction, which is why I said "if I can get all 3 at the same time). Also having no children I have time for multiple partial water changes weekly, if needed with such heavy eaters. As a man who once shut down a government construction job on an military base so I could personally remove all the toads and annole lizards that were going to be crushed by heavy machinery, I guess I get a bit defensive when it appears someone is questioning my concern for an animals well being. Thanks again for your concern, but no fears, my fish will be happy or I will make them happy or I will find them a happy home.

 

[ThatsDeep!]

Detritus just refers to the "your favorite fish" question. If you chose one in that species it shows on your posts. Everyone has something under each user name. Just did not see a response to this question so threw this in.

 

[SkyShark]

Detritus just refers to the "your favorite fish" question. If you chose one in that species it shows on your posts. Everyone has something under each user name. Just did not see a response to this question so threw this in.

The detritus part refers to how many posts you have made. I don't think it has any relation to the favorite fish question.
It is kind of a proxy for your standing on the forum. As you make more posts your standing increases and the names change (at set increments, not sure what they are though). Newbies are detritus, then chromis (I think around 50 posts), clownfish (100 or 200 posts?), mandarin, and so on. Gotta respect the guys and gals with Barracuda or Shark under their name. Takes a lot of posts to get there!
Just a fun thing, nothing is different on the site for any title, just a couple things for member vs. nonmember account (check the become a member section for more info on that).

 

[jda123]

Don't over complicate lighting a FOWLR tank. I don't have one right now, but I have had many, many large FOWLR tanks. Just get some 40W T12 reef quality bulbs for your current shop lights and keep them for 2 years or until they burn out - something like Coralife are fine. 1 Actinic and 1 10K, or a pair of each.

If you do want to get into more advance lighting, there are some serious issues in some of the posts on this thread. T5, T5 or T12 can last for 12 months, or more, even on a reef... and can be used until the burn out on a FOWLR. Nobody uses LEDs for 5+ years like some cost/benefits lay out - many people have upgraded their LED panels on this board since others have changed their light bulbs. Don't get tied up in the tech since most of lights that focus on tech have only tech to focus on since the don't perform like so many people want, so if you are into tech, then go for it and if you want performance, then go for performance. Also, don't trust any cost/benefit model that does not count in heat, either as a positive or a negative (in colorado it is a positive since heat generating lights can make your high-wattage heaters run a LOT less) or uses the life cycle of a LED for more than 2-3 years. Don't make this too hard either... if you don't want to just use shop lights and are interested in some reef-quality fixtures, then buy a quality used T5 or T12 unit from somebody for 25% of retail and roll with it and change the bulbs after 24 months unless they burn out sooner. You can find something on Craigslist to meet your needs.

The best FOWLR lighting IMO is 150W Metal Halide. 2 bulbs to change ever 24 months. Great color and shimmer. Cheap to run at 300ish watts that can cut your in-tank heating bill in half. You will not have If 300W is too much, then consider 70W halides.

Off topic of lighting, but all of those fish should get along. They are not really tough/mean triggers like a Clown, Blue Line or Titan. The blacks are such wusses that people have kept them in reefs - they are somewhat planktivores. However, all could get really aggressive if you let the tank get really dirty or don't feed them well. I have had all three in together. Try and get the black as small as possible. I had a 5" black that could eat the large sheet of nori all by it's self in like 15-20 seconds.

 

[SynDen]

Don't over complicate lighting a FOWLR tank. I don't have one right now, but I have had many, many large FOWLR tanks. Just get some 40W T12 reef quality bulbs for your current shop lights and keep them for 2 years or until they burn out - something like Coralife are fine. 1 Actinic and 1 10K, or a pair of each.

If you do want to get into more advance lighting, there are some serious issues in some of the posts on this thread. T5, T5 or T12 can last for 12 months, or more, even on a reef... and can be used until the burn out on a FOWLR. Nobody uses LEDs for 5+ years like some cost/benefits lay out - many people have upgraded their LED panels on this board since others have changed their light bulbs. Don't get tied up in the tech since most of lights that focus on tech have only tech to focus on since the don't perform like so many people want, so if you are into tech, then go for it and if you want performance, then go for performance. Also, don't trust any cost/benefit model that does not count in heat, either as a positive or a negative (in colorado it is a positive since heat generating lights can make your high-wattage heaters run a LOT less) or uses the life cycle of a LED for more than 2-3 years. Don't make this too hard either... if you don't want to just use shop lights and are interested in some reef-quality fixtures, then buy a quality used T5 or T12 unit from somebody for 25% of retail and roll with it and change the bulbs after 24 months unless they burn out sooner. You can find something on Craigslist to meet your needs.

The best FOWLR lighting IMO is 150W Metal Halide. 2 bulbs to change ever 24 months. Great color and shimmer. Cheap to run at 300ish watts that can cut your in-tank heating bill in half. You will not have If 300W is too much, then consider 70W halides.

Off topic of lighting, but all of those fish should get along. They are not really tough/mean triggers like a Clown, Blue Line or Titan. The blacks are such wusses that people have kept them in reefs - they are somewhat planktivores. However, all could get really aggressive if you let the tank get really dirty or don't feed them well. I have had all three in together. Try and get the black as small as possible. I had a 5" black that could eat the large sheet of nori all by it's self in like 15-20 seconds.

+1

 

[zombie]

T5, T5 or T12 can last for 12 months, or more, even on a reef... and can be used until the burn out on a FOWLR. Nobody uses LEDs for 5+ years like some cost/benefits lay out - many people have upgraded their LED panels on this board since others have changed their light bulbs.

Also, don't trust any cost/benefit model that does not count in heat, either as a positive or a negative (in colorado it is a positive since heat generating lights can make your high-wattage heaters run a LOT less) or uses the life cycle of a LED for more than 2-3 years.

The best FOWLR lighting IMO is 150W Metal Halide. 2 bulbs to change ever 24 months. Great color and shimmer. Cheap to run at 300ish watts that can cut your in-tank heating bill in half. You will not have If 300W is too much, then consider 70W halides.

I will have to respectfully disagree with this. People dont upgrade led lights because they no longer work, they do it because they want the new features and such from the rapid increase in technilogical advances in led fixtures. Leds themselves are rated for a lifespan of 20,000 to 50,000 hours depending on manufacturer and good drivers, such and meanwell can easily last 5 years before they are in need of replacement. And while you can replace bulbs when they burn out, I have seen a noticable increase of algae growth after 6 months of age.


Heat is only a positive in winter, and it is only a partial positive. Less than 50% of the heat actually makes it to the tank and the rest goes into your house, which can be done for less than half the price with natural gas. At best 75% of the extra wattage is useful by that logic. During summer, it makes things much worse since air conditioners are at best 80% efficient and a chiller may be necessary to keep temps reasonable. The savings in winter added to the extra costs in summer make it a wash and any increase in wattage is just that, an increase in wattage.

While a 150W halide looks great, leds are comparable in look, but do it for a lot less money. Even over 2 years, mh cost 380 to run vs $87 + led fixture cost. Each year beyond that, the leds only cost an extra $43 vs 140 for mh.

 

[jda123]

300 watts of MH at 8 hours = 2400 watts or 2.4 KWH per day at .085 cents (high rate in Longmont) per KWH is 20 cents a day. That is about 73 bucks a year. If somebody cannot afford this, then they need a new hobby... or probably no hobby at all. The same 90G tank could need 600-900W of heaters that could need to run 10-12 hours a day at a substantially larger cost.

There are actual studies from Joshi and a few more about bulb life, spectrum shift and the myth of algae growth. Fluorescent or MH bulbs don't shift spectrum like some people think and any algae growth issues are probably attributed to tanks maturing and compounding organic settlement. I would love to hear about your actual experiences, though. I have had many tanks since the 1990s and never seen this phenomenon... and even those who have reported it often learn later that it was not their bulbs, but rather their tank caught up with their filtering/equipment or lack of maintenance. I am running 22 month old 14K Phoneix bulbs right now - ask anybody who has been over lately about all of my algae.

The LED hours of 20-50K are at a 60% emit rate - some more, some less. Some more/less without heat. The film wears off of some of them with extra humidity. This is not acceptable for this hobby and the useful life is much less. When you factor in dimming, their ability to flash is also diminished by the same rate, making the photons have different energy and be less effective as they age. Nobody know how long they will last, but there are some people on RC who have 3-4 year old AI SOLs that the coral don't respond as well to as brand new ones - the supposition (anecdotal) is that they are done in 4-5 years of effectively growing marine life. Mixing facts that LEDs can work to illuminate on ON button on a VCR and also growing marine life is very dangerous and are on different levels. If you want to open a thread to talk about LEDs, then we can have at it, or I can show you many old threads that always end up the same... somebody is enamored with the tech, defends it with half truths and mixed arguments (not on purpose), either [quits the hobby and story over,gets more into the hobby], if they get more into it they see the issues with their own eyes as the get more experience on their own rather from the interwebs, start to figure out the half truths and mixed arguments, optional[mixes in some T5 or MH] and lastly moves completely away from the LED. These points are like step 1 of 6/7 in the understanding process. For most smart people who have been around and have know what they have seen, there is no argument that you can make with a honest cost/benefit that they are worth the money... unless you just love to tinker with the tech and then they are cool since there is nothing else like them.

Put a kill-a-watt on your heaters right now, in summer. You will wish that you could edit that paragraph after you find out how much they run in the summer - the paragraph sounds like something that you read somewhere from somebody in Florida or Arizona where that might be true. It is about equal to the winter here, unless you are from Alaska and don't heat your house at all, where the increase in humidity makes up for the few degrees that your house might run cooler.

 

[zombie]

300 watts of MH at 8 hours = 2400 watts or 2.4 KWH per day at .085 cents (high rate in Longmont) per KWH is 20 cents a day. That is about 73 bucks a year. If somebody cannot afford this, then they need a new hobby... or probably no hobby at all. The same 90G tank could need 600-900W of heaters that could need to run 10-12 hours a day at a substantially larger cost.

Total cost I used includes yearly bulb changes + fixture cost and 10 hours a day on. If you need 600-900 kW of heaters on a 90 gal then something is seriously wrong. I have 500 kW of heaters on a 125 with leds and 2 of the 4 are backups only and turn on for a few hours a month if that. You seem to sorely misunderstand basic heat transfer, energy, and economics. With mh you are adding 70 watts of power compared to leds of which less than 50% actually gets transferred to the water and like I said before the other 50% ends up being a wash across the entire year. Therefore at best you are adding 35W per 150 w halide compared to equivalent leds.

Put a kill-a-watt on your heaters right now, in summer. You will wish that you could edit that paragraph after you find out how much they run in the summer - the paragraph sounds like something that you read somewhere from somebody in Florida or Arizona where that might be true. It is about equal to the winter here, unless you are from Alaska and don't heat your house at all, where the increase in humidity makes up for the few degrees that your house might run cooler.

I'll do you one better. Here is the graph for yesterday, which was a warm but not unreasonable day. The peaks are when my 150 w heater kicks on. As you can see, less than 20% duty cycle and I keep my house around 76 degrees. If I had halides I personally would need a chiller.

 

[Walter White]

, if they get more into it they see the issues with their own eyes as the get more experience on their own rather from the interwebs, start to figure out the half truths and mixed arguments, optional[mixes in some T5 or MH] and lastly moves completely away from the LED.

I can totally agree with this. Im a perfect case in point. I started this hobby 5 years ago pretty much as LED tech was just starting to really take off with lights like the AI sol. Early on I made some connections that for the most part gave me unlimited access to the best LED tech available. So naturally LED is the way I went and had what I thought was great success using LED and I would have made all the same arguments I am hearing now and have heard literally hundreds if not thousands of times over and over for people defending LED.

With all the access Ive had not just with the top LED fixtures out there but also the engineers making them I finally came to a point where I started to realize that my overall knowledge of reefing and husbandry skills had reached a point where my tank should be looking better and in some cases not just better but a lot better. Who was I comparing my self to? Every single time it was a tank running either MH, T5, T12 or some combination of the three.

Here I am 5 years later with probably a good amount of experience more than most with three out of the of the top LED manufactures in the market and I am now using MH. I've not been using MH long but the difference I have seen in a relatively short amount of time has all but floored me! I will gladly pay more money in energy and bulbs in trade for being able to enjoy true success when it comes to growing coral.

I have also now been in the hobby long enough to see the same thing occur with many if not most of the most respected and successful reefers we have in this club let lone what I have personally witnessed on RC and R2R. In the end you can argue the energy efficiency of LED over any other form of lighting until you are blue in the face and you wont be wrong but what it really comes down to is MH and T5 just grow coral better. Sure there may be some exceptions but those will be few and far between in the grand scheme.

Me personally I got into this hobby for the love and the fascination with coral not gimmicky lightning storms and the array of endless color variations that in the end do nothing more than introduce more unknown variables into an already complicated hobby.

I will have to say however I would choose LED for a FOWLR tank, that seems perfectly reasonable and IMO makes for a great opportunity to be able to tinker with all the features LED offers without the frustration LED can introduce to overall coral growth and coloration.

I have no doubt that given enough time LED tech will catch-up with and surpass MH and T5 but I think for those of us that have really stuck it out and made the switch back to MH/T5 or switched for the first time, it will still be a long while before LED is truly reconsidered for serious coral lovers. That said I have to disagree that LED is any kind of good investment at this point. I dare to say that by the time LED catches up with MH and T5 the price will also have reduced to the point that you no longer have to argue that "its an investment".

I know I will got a lot of disagreement and thats ok. This is just my 2 cents for what its worth.

 

[zombie]

+1. Well spoken. I will still always use LEDs cause of the fantastic features either way, but great points.

 

[GiraffeCat]

Beer, and fireflies. Done. :lostit:



Welcome to the club.

So, what did you come up with (after all the lighting hatred going on)?

Late,
GC

 

[charleshardy5]

Haha. Well I for one have been following this and doing a lot of reading and am going to go with two 250w MH lights on my upcoming upgrade to a 100g tank. This thread sparked a lot of thought on my own part so all hating aside thanks everyone for the input and thanks matthew for the OP to bring on the discussion

 

[Matthew]

Thanks everyone. I'm glad I'm not the only one who recognized the hatred. The first person to respond had it right, I was opening a can of worms with this question. I have actually decided to buy an assortment of T8 bulbs to fit my current light. It's a 4 bulb fixture, so I'm going to play with a combination of 50/50, actinic, Colormax, a deep ocean blue and a few others. One thing that seems consistent is that lighting for a FOWLR is a personal preference and there is no right answer. I intend on making an upgrade next year so I'm going to wait before buying any new fixture.

I appreciated the help from those of you who took the time to share your experiences. Unfortunately, I was reminded why I have no social media accounts anywhere, and why I spend my days alone on a river in the mountains digging for my paycheck. I probably won't post again and will rely on my buddy from GW for advice going forward. I just have no tolerance for condescending behavior, towards me or between others, usually coming from some false sense of entitlement or bravado from behind an avatar. I was once homeless for 4 years in the far north, and at one time made 6 figures for a few years, I was never condescending to anyone. I came from rock bottom, made it to the top, fell hard, got up and I'm on my way back up the ladder of life. I have been struggling without a drink for 15 years, 7 months and 6 days ( not that I'm counting ). My point is that through all my ups and downs I have learned one thing, people suck. I have always remained the same. The toys a man owns does not make the man. That's enough preaching from me. Good luck everyone.

 

[zombie]

I probably won't post again and will rely on my buddy from GW for advice going forward. I just have no tolerance for condescending behavior, towards me or between others, usually coming from some false sense of entitlement or bravado from behind an avatar.

Never feel afraid to post something here. There is an extreme wealth of knowledge on this forum in between the occasional argument. Mamy of us are stubborn and set in our ways (myself included), so every now and then there will be some banter on hot topics like mh vs led vs t5 and what kind of pump you should get. You never know when you will need a quick answer to a problem, and we are always here to help at a moments notice.

 

[SynDen]

Don't let the banter/debate mislead you. We are all here for one good reason and that is to ensure that the animals we look after get the best possible care we can provide for them. We are all very passionate about that and that passion shows through in many ways. I understand your wanting to stay in the mountains and away from people, because I too spent many years living like that. Most people really do suck, but I will say that the people and friends that I have met through this club are some of the best and most generous people I have ever met. We all look out for each other and are truly friends in reefing and in everything else.

 

[Walter White]

I probably won't post again and will rely on my buddy from GW for advice going forward. I just have no tolerance for condescending behavior, towards me or between others, usually coming from some false sense of entitlement or bravado from behind an avatar. I was once homeless for 4 years in the far north, and at one time made 6 figures for a few years, I was never condescending to anyone. I came from rock bottom, made it to the top, fell hard, got up and I'm on my way back up the ladder of life. I have been struggling without a drink for 15 years, 7 months and 6 days ( not that I'm counting ). My point is that through all my ups and downs I have learned one thing, people suck. I have always remained the same. The toys a man owns does not make the man. That's enough preaching from me. Good luck everyone.

There is no hatred here Just some vocal people with different opinions. You want to see hated go start the same thread on RC lol.

Everyone here has good intentions and truly want to help. Sometimes heated debate is a good thing. Some of the most valuable knowable I have learned has come from debates like these.

Its when name calling and that sort of thing starts that its gone to far and thast when the mods will jump in to put a stop to it. I don't think this discussion ever got anywhere close to that. Honestly that rarely ever happens here.

Stick around you'll be glad you did.

 

[charleshardy5]

There is no hatred here Just some vocal people with different opinions. You want to see hated go start the same thread on RC lol.

Everyone here has good intentions and truly want to help. Sometimes heated debate is a good thing. Some of the most valuable knowable I have learned has come from debates like these.

Its when name calling and that sort of thing starts that its gone to far and thast when the mods will jump in to put a stop to it. I don't think this discussion ever got anywhere close to that. Honestly that rarely ever happens here.

Stick around you'll be glad you did.

smarty pants

 

[GiraffeCat]

............ I have been struggling without a drink for 15 years, 7 months and 6 days ( not that I'm counting ). ...........

Woo hoo! Another non-drinker! Come to the NOCO meeting - We'll get all F***ed up on Gatorade and go play in the bouncy house!!!! :stoked:

Glad to hear you picked your lighting. Do stick around, though, as this place can be fun at times - and helpful.

Late,

GC

 

[cent36]

Just to throw my two cents in:

Just get the lighting that accomplishes what you want within the best budget. I personally like LED just due to the fact that they are long lasting, low energy, low heat and can accomplish everything the other lights can do. As someone said above, it's all about personal preference.

I went with this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+27873&pcatid=27873
At only around $120-150 you can have a really good/cool system that is dimmable, customizable, mimics the weather, programmable.....pretty much anything you want and self sustaining too that won't break the bank NOR will it detract from your customized wood enclosure.

Good luck and I truly hope you don't quit the boards/group.

 

[Matthew]

Thanks everyone for your input. I ended up going with a 48" Aquatic Life Edge LED. It is supposed to be arriving on Saturday so I'll write a quick review after I get it set up. Thanks again.