sump vs canister filter

[TravelinGal]

I do NOT get this sump thing. I have it set up but the water it drains out from the overflow box is so slow I have to crank down the power of the pump to keep the water level above the pump at all and then there is almost no water flow going back into the tank.

Is there anything WRONG with just using 2 decent (quality and size) canister filters and ditching the sump system? (tank is not reef ready) Plus the sump makes so much more noise than the canisters do...

Help!!!! I wanted the sump to work, but it isn't. Plus I read that the bio-balls type sump is bad for reef systems because it creates more nitrates.

The filter I have now (running with the sump - and doing all the work, I think...) is Fluval External 305/306 Canister Filter and can be used with tanks up to 70 Gallons and filters at a rate of 260 GPH - so I know that this one alone is not adequate.
Water is getting cloudy and foxface is swimming in a manner that concerns me - rapid up and down ovals as if it is agitated - primarily in one corner of the tank. (11am - 8/12 - foxface seems more calm today)


Photos and details in post 14

 

[SkyDiv3r17]

Seems like you have a clog in your overflow or just a small one. You just need to match flow rates on each side which is provided by the over flow manufacturer and a ball/gate to hold down the return pump if needed.

If you aren't going to go that way I would highly recommend having some type of refugium. Whether you buy a hang on the back one or buy an emporer 400 and use the filter slots as a place for a refugium. It's up to you.

I've never used a canister filter but from the things I've heard, I wouldn't trust one.

 

[TravelinGal]

It's a brand new overflow. I told them what I had (showed pictures - so I wouldn't have to remember details) and they said that was the overflow box I needed.

I'm cool with some sort of refugium.

I used canisters for years with my freshwater tank and used them on my smaller tank before I got the 120. It came with some parts but not all, so that's why I had to take pictures of what I had and let them help me sort it out. (Them = Neptunes)
I hate the water rushing sound (like a toilet draining) of the overflow and the noisy hum of the pump in the sump. Canisters are so much quieter!
I'm not afraid of new things, but I am SO not happy with this. I'm also afraid of the risk of flooding. That isn't an issue with canisters either.

SkyDiv3r - what have you heard about canisters that make you not trust them? Others bad experiences or actually bad for marine - or???

 

[Balz3352]

Canisters are kinda known like bioballs to harbor nitrates unless you clean them weekly

 

[Balz3352]

Is it the lifereef overflow? If so they have a silencer which helps drastically so I have read

 

[SkyDiv3r17]

I literally put a hand towel over my overflow and it helped dramatically with noise.

But Balz is right. They can be big nitrate factories if not taken care of. That's why I like my refugium. I haven't had nitrates for over a year because of it.

Do you know what the rated gph is on the overflow?

 

[zombie]

I would avoid canister filters. They are much worse about being "nitrate factories" than bio balls by a lot. What kind of overflow do you have? What kind of pump do you have? How high is your return above the pump? Pictures would help.

Also make sure you have a good siphon on your overflow tube. if there is a big air bubble in there, that would explain the low flow. You also need to remember that with sumps, there is a running water level and a power loss level. You will have to have the water level several inches above the pump when it is off and the water level will drop in the sump when you turn the pump on.

 

[Fitz19d]

Just a hang on back overflow then? I can't help but wonder if you maybe don't have it working right perhaps. Or you are just using a massively overpowered pump someone sold you that would be more key on a much higher gph reef ready tank.

Maybe some pics for us of it in action to kinda see whats going on. Sump so much better for water volume and hiding equipment so DT doesn't look like ***. Can't really put a skimmer in a canister....

 

[sethsolomon]

What overflow box do you have?

 

[sethsolomon]

I would do either the BRS CS150 or CS102 as an overflow box in a 120g and anything under 800 gph just won't do the trick IMO.

 

[aztecdreams]

Where in Aurora are you? Maybe I could swing by and help out

 

[kyuubichan218]

Your pump should dictate the flowrate, not the overflow box trying to tune the pump can lead to all sorts of problems like syphon breaks if your flowrate is too low or overflowing your tank if its too high. Make sure your overflow box is rated at least for the fog of your pump.

Properly plumbed, I have had external overflows that I couldn't hear at all, save for the pump if your system is big enough. Dumps also give you a lot of freedom to experiment with different equipment like algae scrubbers, skimmers, reactors, etc that you can't plumb into a cannister system.

Sent from my ADR6330VW using Tapatalk 2

 

[SynDen]

Yep like others have stated, Sump all the way. Canisters on reef tanks are a waiting disaster.
And ya just sounds like you need to get the overflow tuned right. What kind is it? and what size pump you using would help?

 

[TravelinGal]

ok let's see ---

overflow is Eshopps Pf 800 Overflow Box Up To 125 Gal
pump is Rio+ 3100
sump is Sealife Systems model 150 wet/dry

finally got the photos - not sure why some rotated, but here they are none the less...

 

[TravelinGal]

Here's the sump before I cleaned it and a photo of the water level vs the pump which has to lay on its side to TRY to stay under water

 

[zombie]

Try this.

1. With the pump off, fill the sump up to 1" below the rim.

2. Turn your pump on full blast and make sure there are no air bubbles in the return siphon.

3. Wait 5 minutes and check the water level in your sump. If the pump is still submerged, then leave the pump on fullbblast. If the pump is about to suck air, then dial it back about a 1/4 turn on your valve.

4. Once the pump is dialed in, remove as much water as you need to get the runnung water level where you want it and mark the level with tape or a sharpie so you kbow where to fill to. If you have an ATO, 1-2" above the pump is sufficient. If you fill up by hand go about 3" above the pump.

 

[sethsolomon]

Where in Aurora are you? Maybe I could swing by and help out

+1 Have him stop by and check it out. Numbers wise it should work just fine. But I would definitely swap that wet/dry over to a refugium. 40g breeder refugium or a fluid dynamics acrylic one.

 

[jda123]

Sumps are for 2 things in saltwater. First - surface skim gets a lot of proteins out of the waters. Secondly - it is a place for the rest of your gear like a skimmer, reactors and the like.

Sure, you can get HOB or in-tank skimmers, but they are mostly junk compared to in-sump models.

If they tank is good sized, then the glass will be thick. If so, drill that tank and keep the sump - you can drill larger tanks with the water level down to about half, or less.

Bio Balls do not create nitrate any different than other bacteria sources. This is a longstanding myth or misinformation. The house aerobic bacteria to start the N cycle. Some people surmise that having the NO2->NO3 happen nearer to a anoxic zone (think rock or sand) has synergy where the NO3 MIGHT get used better due to proximity. Maybe, maybe not. People have reported lower NO3 when they removed their bio balls, but there have been plenty of high-end anecdotes that suggest that the heightened awareness and interest from the reefer that led to the bio-ball exodus was the reason for the change and no the bio balls themselves... sometimes reefers just get better at what they do. People also have bio balls in tanks with no NO3. In any case, if you have enough rock, which should be your main filter, then you can take them out. You can put a skimmer in the chamber where they go. In any case, if your tank cannot process NO3 efficiently, then you have problems like too little sand, not-ready or bound up live rock, silica sand, deadly levels of metals or PO4 or the like. Handling NO3 should be pretty easy in most reef tanks and the system should keep the levels less than 1 on their own.

Sumps should not make too much noise. Make sure that the return lines are below the water level.

Canister filters are also not nitrate factories. Another piece of misinformation. They house media and any type of bad maintenance can lead to organic buildup - live rock is no different. Again, the reefer is the problem here, not the canister filter.

 

[jda123]

I will say this one more time so that everybody knows... canister filters are NOT A PROBLEM. Your media reactors are the same thing. They are not factories for anything or time bombs. They are a tool that can be VERY effective and useful. Please don't ever say that they are bad. They also are not the answer to everything. I think that most people would benefit more from a Magnum 350 than they would a cheap BRS media reactor since they are powered and force water through at a more even distribution through the media.

Most of you were not around where people had to figure stuff out on their own in the aquarium hobby. If you were, or if you dabbled in freshwater a bit, you would know unequivocally that canister filters are pretty awesome for a lot of things.

If you want to get a canister filter to polish the water or remove organics, then they work well. They will need maintained. They are not a substitute for a surface skim or a protein skimmer.

 

[TravelinGal]

Tried this as directed and water still drained to far down. Had to turn the valve about 3/4 closed to maintain water level

Try this.

1. With the pump off, fill the sump up to 1" below the rim.

2. Turn your pump on full blast and make sure there are no air bubbles in the return siphon.

3. Wait 5 minutes and check the water level in your sump. If the pump is still submerged, then leave the pump on fullbblast. If the pump is about to suck air, then dial it back about a 1/4 turn on your valve.

4. Once the pump is dialed in, remove as much water as you need to get the runnung water level where you want it and mark the level with tape or a sharpie so you kbow where to fill to. If you have an ATO, 1-2" above the pump is sufficient. If you fill up by hand go about 3" above the pump.