WTB WTT Just fricken WANT IT! A controller of course

[skebo]

I have been looking at controllers, Apex and Reefkeeper.
I am leaning towards APEX and here is why.

1. I fancy myself an engineer and the additional complexity available (i hear about) with an Apex does not scare me. In fact I may better appriciate or desire it. However I don't know that I require it.
2. I also read that Apex is quick and open about details of controlling new market items such as lights. However I don't change equipment for the latest. If it can control what I got....?
3. Apex was developed around a WEB server, for ReefKeeper this was an afterthought. My words summarizing that from what I hear the APEX nails the webbased functionality where as reefkeeper has come up lacking. This is pretty big for me.

Right now I have immideate need for PH, TEmp, Salinity, and timer functionality for power heads, heaters, chiller, and sump lights. I can use my controller to manage my AI lights for now. I believe I can plug all my AI lights into a single power strip, and plug that into a controller for purposes such as: 1. If temp raises to 79, turn on chiller. If it rises to 81 turn of lights and have it kill that outlet.

I believe I picked up a ORP and o3 gene, so I would love to put those to use. I also read using the ORP probe alone helps provide a baseline reading that when deviated from can be a signal of a problem such as Ammonia levels.
(To any manufacture, really, by now you should have Ammonia detecting probes or monitoring cabability. I know this hardly ever
changes in established tanks but a few times I had annens or stars spit out dinner (sliders) or corals come of rocks or a fish die
that spiked ammonia a bit. While i am checking things daily and catch this early on, what if I was on vacation and needed to
instruct a fish sitter to look for a problem? As the leading toxic killer, the alert to get on it sooner still adds value in the maintaining
of quaility water. Shuft happens, and technology these days, you should catch up, develop and deliver).

I also plan on getting a calc reactor, so an additional ph prob would become needed.

 

[djkms]

Thought about a reef angel? Talk to Gabe (Cherub) he runs one. I have one for sale as well (sorry I have no experience with one but hear they are great!).

http://www.marinecolorado.org/forum...S-Brand-New-Never-used-Reef-Angel-Plus-System

 

[sethsolomon]

I have a used Apex Full I would be willing to sell.

Includes: EB8, Apex full head unit,apex display unit, Cables, temp probe, and ORP probe (The ph probe went bad).

PM me to discuss price if you're interested. I also have a calcium reactor with ph probe and 20 lb tank if your interested.

 

[zombie]

If you want the most freedom in programming, go with a Reef Angel. If you want the best user friendly platform that can do the vast majority of what you would ever need, get an apex. Both platforms blow a reefkeeper out of the water.

You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

 

[bazeball05]

I do not recommend a reef keeper to many people. Sounds like you have a lot of stuff you want this controller to do and I guarantee Apex will do it better.
For 1, reef keeper is only windows compatible (and their updated to allow them to be used in the current operating system takes a while.)
2. Mine reefkeeper has a glitch and will turn everything on about once every week and a half (including my ATO) so it's not reliable.
3. Good luck with customer service. They won't help you at all and the forum is that much help sometimes.

IMO spend the extra money and go with Apex because they are a better company with better customer service, better equipment, better interface and better design.

You could also look at reef angel if your an engineer. They are pretty good from what I hear and are more controllable due to them being open source

 

[DyM]

All 3 do the same thing in my opinion. You can't loose with which ever one you choose. I have the apex, and love it.

If you look here, you can see my status. http://www.reeftronics.net/d-m/apex-status
You can see my programing on the drop down under my profile D&M, in fact you can see everyone's program that is hosted at reeftronics. Russ who runs this site, works for Neptune now and I suspect is the brains behind their whole fusion (cloud) offering coming soon.

Good luck with what ever you decide. You won't regret getting a controller.

 

[skebo]

I have not seen a reef angle. Where can I see one in action?

 

[Munch]

Really good price:

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/sel...ilux-controller-system-brand-spankin-new.html

 

[Walter White]

The Reefkeeper is not that bad so if you find a great deal on one I still think its still a good option. That said Yes the APEX is better!

I've used the reef keeper Elite for years and know them inside and out they do have their quirks which can be frustrating if you don't know how to deal with them. Their customer support is non existent but I can say ive been running mine to its full capability for going on 4 years and have never had it fail me.

Personally I would not use any controller to control things like salinity or pH your just asking for a crash at some point. I also would only use a controller as a secondary safety net for ATO I would not use one as the primary control like what comes with many of the big controller packages these days. The salinity probes on all hobby grade controllers suck I wouldn't even bother. The pH probes are a bit better but you should plan on checking the calibration often.

Just my opinion.

 

[skebo]

Really good price:

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/sel...ilux-controller-system-brand-spankin-new.html

I thought Apex was pricey. I have not heard of this brand. Then again have not been looking until recently. Makes it easier to justify an Apex? owch

 

[skebo]

The Reefkeeper is not that bad so if you find a great deal on one I still think its still a good option. That said Yes the APEX is better!

I've used the reef keeper Elite for years and know them inside and out they do have their quirks which can be frustrating if you don't know how to deal with them. Their customer support is non existent but I can say ive been running mine to its full capability for going on 4 years and have never had it fail me.

Personally I would not use any controller to control things like salinity or pH your just asking for a crash at some point. I also would only use a controller as a secondary safety net for ATO I would not use one as the primary control like what comes with many of the big controller packages these days. The salinity probes on all hobby grade controllers suck I wouldn't even bother. The pH probes are a bit better but you should plan on checking the calibration often.

Just my opinion.

I don't plan on controling Salinity. Just monitoring. I can check and top off every day. Tiered of cheap hydrometers and no point wasting money on a refractomitor when I cna have a controller!

 

[Walter White]

Really good price:

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/sel...ilux-controller-system-brand-spankin-new.html

Again just my opinion but in terms of reliability and quality this is best controller made right here. ^^^^ My 200 will be running the Profilux3 as the primary controller with an Apex as a backup and to take advantage of their mobile tech.

 

[zombie]

Again just my opinion but in terms of reliability and quality this is best controller made right here. ^^^^ My 200 will be running the Profilux3 as the primary controller with an Apex as a backup and to take advantage of their mobile tech.

Agreed, but with the exception of their outlets on things that turn on and off a lot. Apex uses triacs that can switch 30,000 - 100,000 times. Electromechanical relays are limited to at most 10,000 operations.

Here is the basic jist

Reliability
1. Profilux
2. Apex
3. Reef Angel and Reefkeeper

Programming capabilities
1. Reef Angel
2. Apex
3. Profilux
4. Reefkeeper

Remote monitoring
1. Apex
2. Reefkeeper
3. Reef Angel
4. Profilux

Ease of programming
1. Profilux
2. Apex
3. Reefkeeper
4. Reef Angel

Available expansions
1. Apex
2. Profilux
3. Reefkeeper
4. Reef Angel

You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

 

[GiraffeCat]

Zombie,

Thanks for the relay life cycle info. Good to have some knowledge in that arena.

May want to move the Reef angel up on the "Remote Monitoring" list, as it has Apps for IOS, Android, and WP8. Web based interaction as well.

The GUI on the Neptune Apex is sweet. Bonus points there. JMO.

Late,
GC

 

[Walter White]

Agreed, but with the exception of their outlets on things that turn on and off a lot. Apex uses triacs that can switch 30,000 - 100,000 times. Electromechanical relays are limited to at most 10,000 operations.

Lets not forget about one very significant problem with TRIAC controlled outlets, they sometimes (most the time in my experience) cannot detect very low power factor devices and as a result may not switch off correctly and fail in the ON position. The types of devices that fall into this low power factor category are things like dosing pumps and other small feed pumps (not good). Lets not also forget that most of the outlets used on the APEX power bars are TRIAC the remainder are EMR. I personally will put my money on an EMR manufactured in Germany any day of the week over one made in China. Personally Id like to have more than 2 outlets on my power bar that I can trust to run something like a dosing pump. Now I could be mistaken because I did not look this up but at ReefStock I could swear that the APEX rep stated that 6 of the 8 outlets on the 8 outlet powerer bar are TRIAC and he openly admitted to the problem that presents with low power factor devices. DA has the same problem 2 of the 4 outlets on each power bar do not function reliably with low power devices.

I have to strongly disagree with your number listed for operation cycles. I think in both case you are way too low. I can argue all day long about how the power management systems I built for NREL in 1998 are still in operation today using old school EMRs with what I can guarantee is more than 10,000 operations (probably closer to 300,000 by now). But since no one cares about what I did for NREL 16 years ago and it really proves nothing here is an article which is basically making an argument for solid stat relays over EMRs and it gives much more realistic numbers. This is not the whole article just the piece on reliability.


"Solid-State Relays (SSRs) vs
Electromechanical Relays
(EMRs)

Longer life and higher reliability

During initial operation, both types of relay show similar levels of reliability. Over time, however, the solid state relay
will gain the edge due to its main advantage: there are no moving parts.

SSRs employ semiconductor switching elements, such as thyristors, triacs, mosfet and transistors to switch the load current. An EMR generates
electromagnetic force when input voltage is applied to the coil, the electromagnetic force then moves the armature that switches the contacts in synchronization. This simple principle of operation makes it possible to manufacture EMRs at a reduced cost. The maximum electrical life of an EMR is the maximum permissible number of switch operations, at a specified contact load and under specified conditions. Electrical/mechanical life is generally rated at 100,000 to max 500,000 operations. SSR data sheets do not carry an electrical life specification like EMRs. Unlike the EMR, where life is dependent on actual switching load and number of cycles, SSR reliability is mainly determined by time-in-operation, rather the number of switching cycles. When SSRs are used within the published specifications, MTBF can be 2 to 4 million hours, depending on the model. A typical estimate for number of operations is between 50 million and 500 million under normal operating conditions, but this is very much application dependent."

All that said I do like the APEX and if there is any realy argument to be made where the APEX is better than the Profilux its in the Software.

 

[SquidBreath]

I started with the Reefkeeper.
Now use an Apex.
Totally worth it.
Get the Apex imho.

 

[skebo]

So the ProFlux is just to pricy. They are not even in the same ball park. Cost factors into lifecycle of equipment used until I can buy 2 of the cheaper brand to account for the return. When I can buy 4-5? No thanks.

Unless a smoking deal comes up on a RK I think I am set on the Apex.

The internet functionality is important to me. I would cringe everyday if I had to work with something that built this as an after thought.
I read statements such as Reefkeeper and quircks. I don't want to have to explain to a tanksitter quircks of a controller.
I also find professionalism on the scale when I hear about new products and plans to control them being developed. RK does not seem to make this (or its communication of it) a priority to its consumers and potential buyers.

 

[JoshHill83]

I'm a huge fan of the Apex. I have it running on my main display and it is awesome. You can program so many fail-safes that it makes it almost impossible to mess up your tank. I have a couple expansion modules set up so that I can monitor salinity, I have alarms set up if it gets to hot or if I have a leak, and I control my Hydra 52s through it. You can monitor your energy usage so you can pretty calculate how much it costs to run your tank. I'm actually looking to get another one. Got to admit, no experience with the others, but nothing but praise for the Apex.

 

[zombie]

You can monitor your energy usage so you can pretty calculate how much it costs to run your tank.

Awesome controller as I have one myself, but this statement is incorrect. Power is not current times voltage in an AC system when any sort of motor is involved. You can get a good ballpark assuming power is current times voltage times 0.85, but the 0.85 varies depending on the ratio of motor loads to resistive loads.

You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

 

[Munch]

Nice thing about the Apex, is there's probably 6 of us running it locally, so there's help close-by if needed!