ATO options...your opinion?

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SquidBreath

Angel Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#1
#1
Hey all! Was hoping to solicit some opinions here...

Recently had a big disaster with my ATO. It stuck on and flooded the tank with RO water and kalk. Been doing aggressive water changes and sucking out the death every day...just now starting to recover...

SOOOO this has caused me to make two decisions...

1) Placing the big 200 project on hold--until I can make this 40 thrive, I don't need a bigger tank...

2) My next project is an improved ATO. (Bet you saw that comin)

Right now I am using a timer, that just puts RO back in from a container housed in a nearby cabinet. That worked ok for a po-boy ATO for a while, but obviously not well enough.

Not much room in my sump for switches etc, so here is my plan.

1) Tap RO unit into the house water supply with a shut off valve. Run line to the ATO tub in the cabinet.

2) Install the ATO tank with TWO mechanical float switches, one upside down from the other. When water level drops low enough, both are open--allowing water to flow in from the RO. When high enough, the first float switch should stop the flow from the ATO.
If this fails, the second float switch turns off the water flow, upstream from the first one.

3) In the sump--a JBJ ATO switch pair from BRS, that activates a peristalic pump to add water back in from the ATO container.

Thoughts?
A lot of this layout if driven by lack of space in the sump.

Any tips / critiques welcome
Thanks!
Dave
 
DyM

DyM

Sting ray
M.A.S.C Club Member
#2
#2
J

jda123

Dolphin
M.A.S.C Club Member
#3
#3
My opinion is that there are 2 types of ATO:
1). Those that have failed, and
2). Those that will

Ok, I know that was douchie... I use 5G water cooler jugs that I carry around with ball valves on JG speed fittings to slowly add the water. Manual, but safe.

Peralistic pump set to BARELY pump enough water with a float and then run on a timer is about as good as it gets IMO. Set the time to times when you are home and might otherwise be looking at the tank. When you go on vacation, fill it up, turn the timer off and just let evaporation happen or have your tanksitter add water that you leave out in front of the tank.

If you have your sump close to your RO resivoir, then manual is not a huge deal and really easy. Perhaps something to consider when planning the 200G. I carry water upstairs to one tank - the other is feet away.
 
D

daverf

Tang
M.A.S.C Club Member
#4
#4
wow Doug...getting me to rethink my JBJ ATO...hm thanks for that opinion...
 
J

jda123

Dolphin
M.A.S.C Club Member
#5
#5
Ultimately, you are trying to beat gravity with plastic and/or electricity. One of those has been a constant forever (at least in terms of our lives). The two that are left are fairly new and unreliable, when compared to the other.

You can really limit your risk by pumping uphill and eliminating gravity (peralistic pump). You can limit even more by using timers to control the electricity and switches to times when you are most likely to be around to see any failures (electricity and "stuck switch" problems). Float valve can add even another layer of protection. In the end, it will fail, but if you plan well, it will fail to pump... not fail and flood your tank.

I think that the plan in the first post is mostly good, I would just add a timer... and not run it when you are not home (vacation or work).

I don't trust 'em and feel that gravity will always win and switches/sensors/floats will always fail, but I am a dogmatic douchebag dinosaur and don't like too much risk, so don't listen to me if you are otherwise inclined.
 
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daverf

Tang
M.A.S.C Club Member
#6
#6
jda123;233491 said:
I don't trust 'em and feel that gravity will always win and switches/sensors/floats will always fail, but I am a dogmatic douchebag dinosaur and don't like too much risk, so don't listen to me if you are otherwise inclined.
Click to expand...
Plastic can't beat gravity? With all due respect I disagree. Happens all the time in the modern age. For example, implants.

In seriousness, that's a good summary (or rant on what a buzzkill gravity is for are tanks, whatever we want to call it). Awesome, thanks, I'm changing up my ATO!

So the question for me is, how did they do ATOs before plastic and electricity? In the 1600s, for example. Hm. Maybe they had JBJ units but just couldn't plug them in?
 
F

Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#7
#7
All these dangers and fears. I'm suprised wouldn't there almost be a better way of a device that just adds a chosen volum at a set time or two. ? It's not consistant over the day toping off, but would mimic just manually topping off.

I imagine it wouldn't be perfect, but something you could run a few days then check salinity and make minor adjustments.
 
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djkms

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#8
#8
I use a Tunze Osmolator which is also controlled by my controller (Neptune Apex).

The Tunze comes on for 2 minutes at a time every 2 hours - otherwise the outlet is shut off (no power).

This prevents the osmolator from potentially overfilling with freshwater should the sensor go bad or if there is a leak.

I have a float switch in my sump that will notify me if the sump level gets too low (leak) and that switch also tells my Tunze to shutoff so if there is a leak it wont get topped off with freshwater.
 
J

jda123

Dolphin
M.A.S.C Club Member
#10
#10
A peristaltic pump on a timer can emulate carrying water. It is not without risks (timer sticking on - sticking off is OK since you don't flood anything). If you set the pump slow enough, then it could take days to flood your tank and you will likely notice. Alarms could help too.

You bet that I am fearful. It takes a long time (and money) to get a SPS tank looking right. If I can eliminate my #1 fear by carrying 10 gallons a week, then I will do it. Not everybody will agree, but it works for me.

Touche, Dave, about implants beating gravity. My bad. I think that in the 1600s, they used what the ocean uses - kent float valves directly from the RO/DI output line... I saw these the last time that I went diving in the Pacific... the float valves were installed between the MP40 and the 6200s.
 
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djkms

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#11
#11
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Time 00:11 to 00:13 Then ON
If Time 02:11 to 02:13 Then ON
If Time 04:11 to 04:13 Then ON
If Time 06:11 to 06:13 Then ON
If Time 08:11 to 08:13 Then ON
If Time 10:11 to 10:13 Then ON
If Time 12:11 to 12:13 Then ON
If Time 14:11 to 14:13 Then ON
If Time 16:11 to 16:13 Then ON
If Time 18:11 to 18:13 Then ON
If Time 20:11 to 20:13 Then ON
If Time 22:11 to 22:13 Then ON
If Outlet SumpFloat = ON Then OFF
If FeedC 000 Then OFF
If FeedD 010 Then OFF


Feed C & D are my maintenance and water change modes. Obviously I dont want my ATO running during a water change :)
 
Munch

Munch

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#13
#13
What float switch do you use on your Apex, and I assume you have a breakout box?
 
Aaron

Aaron

Cyano
M.A.S.C Club Member
#18
#18
For ATO, I recommend the tunze. I've had this for 3 years now with only one minor incident. It got stuck in the off position once because there was algae on the IR sensor, I cleaned it off and it started working again. There's enough redundancy here to almost guarantee 99.9% that it will not get stuck in the ON position as the second detector sits out of the water. Every year or so I test the second sensor just to make sure the salt creep hasn't frozen it in place.

If you hurry it's on sale!!! This is the cheapest I've ever seen it.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/tunze-osmolator-universal-3155-auto-top-off.html
 
T

that0neguy1126

Registered Users
M.A.S.C Club Member
#19
#19
I use a dual float switch and a limited amount of water.

One of the best things to help mitigate (not prevent) a disaster. Is even if mine get stuck on, it will only dump 40 gallons of water in the tank (when talking about ~500 gallons of water, that's not enough to drastically kill anything or change parms).

Then I have 2 float switches. One labeled Sump low, and one labeled sump high. then I use the programing of my Apex to turn on a Tom's Aqualifter pump to pump from my 40 gallon brute to the tank.

Can the system fail? yes. Will it destroy my tank when it does? no.

Also the key is to inspect the system. I check mine every time I do a water change. I make sure no snails are near the switches and no algae is growing on them. I also check to make sure they both read properly so if one is failed I know about it before the 2nd one fails.
 
A

andyrm66

Butterfly Fish
#20
#20
Gravity feed is the way to go if your just topping off water. If it has Kalk you could run into some issues with the float seal leaking. Personally, I run a gravity on my frag tank. Never an issue. On my DT I use an ATO that's plugged into my Apex, with a limited run time. The float switch has failed in the closed position, so it did slowly overfill the tank of a period of a few days/week until I caught it. Salinity was low. This would have been 50 gallons (my ato container size) of freshwater all over the floor had it not been for the Apex and limited run allowed. This also would have been prevented with a "high" water shutoff, or an osmolator. Im planning on ditching the electric ATO and using a gravity feed once I build a SW mixing station with freshwater in the top barrel. At that point, perhaps Ill add a breakout box and use the float switch to alert me of a high water condition in the tank. I really don't like electric ATO's.
 
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