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Matt_Arian

Matt_Arian

For Stuffing!
M.A.S.C Club Member
#1
#1
Hey there!
Mr. Arian checking in here! New to the forums and to saltwater aquariums, but very interested after helping setup my friends 40 gallon reef tank. I'm an avid horticulturist (one sided penstemon's and columbines) and I see unique and challenging opportunities in reef aquariums. Mainly looking for a new, fun, cheap (relatively speaking compared to racing) hobby that's going to bring me years of enjoyment and dedication.

My general idea's for a first setup are this:
Main Tank:
- 35-50 gallon tank
- 10-15 lbs of Fiji live rock (acts a base, see below)
- 20-30 lbs of Florida reef rock (sits on top of/above live rock, little bit more attractive in my opinion)
- 2-3 in layer of live sand

Refugium
- 10-20 gallon tank
- 200 gph sump protein skimmer
- 3 chamber tank
  1. First Chamber; 20 lbs of Fiji live rock with 0.5 to 1.0 inch clearance from bottom with protein skimmer (AquaC EV120) outlet routed to next chamber
  2. Second Chamber (largest chamber); 1 inch layer of live sand, macroalgae (Chaeto), a few hermits and snails. This chamber is also used as a copepod/phytoplankton/zooplankton nursery/habitat as a stable food source.
  3. Third chamber is aeration and a return chamber to the tank
- Possible Calcium reactor depending on size availability, if not just meters and premix solutions for the time being

So after a few days of browsing and researching the internet, I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to setting up a new reef tank, it may be beneficial to setup a refugium and stabilize that environment first, then add the main display tank with nothing more than the hardscape and maybe a few damsels to begin with. After a few weeks and over a period of a few months, start adding the hardier fish, inverts and corals working down to the more delicate and fragile species. My main concern is the health and stability of the tank and inhabitants (both micro and macro), which is why I'm curious if it is wise to build the refugium first.

I know one of the most important factors of aquarium design and setup is "what are you going to put in it?" That's where I've come to a bit of a shortfall. I've got a detailed list of inverts and some of the fish that I want to get, like a clam or two, a few hermits, a couple of stars, maybe a feather duster or two and the typical pistol shrimp/goby pair and some Blenny's, a Mandarin Dragonet and a small group of clowns. I need to know if this seems to be a cohesive and peaceful gathering? Will I come up short on some foods/supply? Or is this a pretty well rounded setup?

Any advice, comments or suggestions are always welcome!

Thanks again!
 
jahmic

jahmic

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#2
#2
Welcome! I had a little laugh with the "cheap...compared to racing" comment; reefing can be affordable if you exercise restraint, racing makes you exercise that wrist-swiping motion with your credit card. ;)

Sounds like your on the right track with your setup, just keep in mind that you may have trouble keeping more than a pair of clowns in a tank of ~40 gallons. Get a build thread going once you start collecting equipment and ask away!
 
Matt_Arian

Matt_Arian

For Stuffing!
M.A.S.C Club Member
#3
#3
I hear you on the restraint on the wrist swiping motion! I have heard that having 2 or more clown fish in a tank 40 gallons or less can be troublesome, and I've seen conflicts already in my friends tank, so I'm thinking otherwise. Do you have any suggestions for invert/crustacean friendly fish?
 
jahmic

jahmic

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#5
#5
I'm partial to wrasses...their color, activity level, and pest control abilities put them at the top of my list. That being said, they aren't always the best choice if you are looking for fish that won't go after your inverts. I've had a blue-fin fairy eat a pair of peppermint shrimp in a couple days, but my yellow coris has (to my knowledge) only killed a single hermit crab, and gets along fine with my cleaner shrimp...so that family of fish can be hit or miss.
 
Haulin Oates

Haulin Oates

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#6
#6
New to the Forums and Salt

Welcome! Sounds like you've already done quite a bit of research! I second the damsel comment; don't put anything in the tank that you don't ultimately want in there for the long term. Damsels are notoriously hard to catch without ripping up your aquascaping. I also wouldn't put crabs in a refugium. Maybe a few large turbo snails. That way you lessen the risk of them getting into the intake of a pump. I personally am loving my 40 breeder display/40 breeder sump setup. It's a nice 65gal. Total water volume, and there is plenty of room in the sump for lots of equipment and macro growth.
 
ValG

ValG

Tang
M.A.S.C Club Member
Platinum Sponsor
#7
#7
Welcome to the hobby! Being relatively new to this mysefl I can't even imagine doing it without the support of this great community. I would have quit long time ago.
 
D

daverf

Tang
M.A.S.C Club Member
#9
#9
Welcome! In terms of order of starting...refugium or display...you'd just want to wait to add any life until the full cycle completes for the entire system. And, assume a minor recycle will begin if you start one, then the other. Ideally you could start them both on day one. So, IMO, I don't think it doesn't matter which goes online first.

In terms of clowns...your best bet will be to buy a mated pair (slightly higher expense)...else you would have to try to mate a pair (long process...may have to exchange potential male mates multiple times before a larger female accepts...may not have any success despite attempts)...this would be approach of least resistance although slightly (and well worth) more expense. Non-mated clowns are likely to fight to the death, especially in a smaller system.

I would suggest you skip the live sand, and just go with live rock. Rock will seed the sand over time, which means you have greater potential to introduce pests by adding live sand.
 
Matt_Arian

Matt_Arian

For Stuffing!
M.A.S.C Club Member
#12
#12
Thanks eveyone! I'm sure I'll find this community very welcoming and educational. Can't wait to get out of the design phase and start dropping frags and fish in!

Welcome to the club! I never recommend to cycle a tank with damsels, here is a good article on some options: http://www.mrsaltwatertank.com/bacteria-in-a-bottle-functional-or-fake/
Click to expand...
Thank you! And good article on the cycling tips. It did sound a bit cruel to do that to fish, even though it would have been weeks before I added them.

Welcome! Sounds like you've already done quite a bit of research! I second the damsel comment; don't put anything in the tank that you don't ultimately want in there for the long term. Damsels are notoriously hard to catch without ripping up your aquascaping. I also wouldn't put crabs in a refugium. Maybe a few large turbo snails. That way you lessen the risk of them getting into the intake of a pump. I personally am loving my 40 breeder display/40 breeder sump setup. It's a nice 65gal. Total water volume, and there is plenty of room in the sump for lots of equipment and macro growth.
Click to expand...
My research is a force of habit. I don't stop until I know enough details to be able to recite the in's and out's of a particular field of interest. Trust me, the amount of books, equipment, science paraphernalia (too much to list) and miscellaneous crap around my house is enough to prove that point.

Good call on the damsels; it would most likely get to the point of frustration that I would tear the whole damn thing apart and flush them down the toilet with extreme prejudice. I really want to have a sizable refugium for natural filtering and for a little micro food farm coupled with a main display tank, so the more that I think about the crabs in the refugium it sounds more like a bad idea for the objective of raising supplementary food for the rest of the tank. I think I'll go with snails for cleaning instead.

daverf
Welcome! In terms of order of starting...refugium or display...you'd just want to wait to add any life until the full cycle completes for the entire system. And, assume a minor recycle will begin if you start one, then the other. Ideally you could start them both on day one. So, IMO, I don't think it doesn't matter which goes online first.

In terms of clowns...your best bet will be to buy a mated pair (slightly higher expense)...else you would have to try to mate a pair (long process...may have to exchange potential male mates multiple times before a larger female accepts...may not have any success despite attempts)...this would be approach of least resistance although slightly (and well worth) more expense. Non-mated clowns are likely to fight to the death, especially in a smaller system.

I would suggest you skip the live sand, and just go with live rock. Rock will seed the sand over time, which means you have greater potential to introduce pests by adding live sand.​
Click to expand...
I was thinking that just waiting to fully cycle the system was the best approach. My reasoning on the building the refugium before the main display tank were to establish a strong "reprocessing" tank beforehand to aid in establishing beneficial bacteria and to improve the water structure/quality in the main display tank. By increasing the amount of macroalgae (chaeto, ulva and red mangroves) and other natural filters and cleaners (no animals) via the refugium, I figured I could reduce the toxicity levels more efficiently and effectively to reduce having to resort to hard supplements to speed the process up. Honestly, I think it will make an interesting experiment to post up the results for everyone to see.

As far as the clowns go, I agree after watching the temperament of my friends 4 in his 45 gallon tank. 2 different types, 2 each, but they are pretty aggressive towards one another.

In regards to the substrate, what would you suggest I do to create a good base to begin with if not live sand? Do you suggest I simply use processed aquarium gravel to start and wait for the live rock to decompose/disintegrate, or is there another method, like pulverizing a few pounds of live rock? I can understand the concept of reducing the risk factors of pest and disease issues by sterilizing or using sterile rocks/sand (note the planned use of reef rock vs. live rock for the initial aquascaping), but isn't the idea of live rock/live sand to introduce a diverse ecosystem in the first place?

Again, thank you all for your input and warm welcomes!

NOTE: I am doing a quick copy-paste to move this conversation to the appropriate forum.
 
SLewis

SLewis

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#15
#15
Welcome to the addiction. lol..

as for clowns i thought i would add my 2 cents worth ( and hey 2 cents aint much in this economy lol.) i had the experience of trying to put 2 decent size clowns together and never having a whole lot of luck (always had one that refused to get along with any others i tried). But i have had alot of success in buying small Clowns and putting them together in the tank at the same time, especially when i got them from a school of smaller clowns.
 
D

daverf

Tang
M.A.S.C Club Member
#16
#16
Great point on benefit to starting refugium first. If you had to pick one to get going before the other, to your points, you're probably right on.

Clownfish are born male. When they pair, one turns female. Males (paired/unpaired) will stunt growth at sexual maturity, whereas females will grow very large. SLewis is right in that you do have a better shot at getting small (male) clowns to form a pair. If you get a large clown (female), it is hit and miss as to whether she will accept a new mate (small clown male) if introduced, and you may have to be ready to separate, pace, try/retry introductions and ultimately even swap out for a new fish. If she rejects a mate and he has nowhere to run/hide, she will likely kill him. Two large clowns (females) will more than likely fight to the death (unless the tank is very big). Much easier to have a single clown or buy them paired, but it is a fascinating/rewarding process to attempt if one like to observe animal behavior. If you try, you can google on clownfish pairing to get more detailed advice on how to proceed, what behavioral responses mean that you will be seeing, etc. I only know all of this because I tried to pair maroons, but lost interest in succeeding :). Lots on the board have great success in pairing/mating though.
 
Matt_Arian

Matt_Arian

For Stuffing!
M.A.S.C Club Member
#17
#17
Thanks everyone for your input! Sounds to me like this is going to be a blast for me! I'll definitely have to look up on how to pair clowns together, as there really is no other fish quite as unique. On a further observation, I agree SLewis on the aggression levels between the smaller pairs and the lager ones. The smaller ones seem to get along a lot better than the two larger specimens. I'll have to ask my buddy what particular type they are.
 
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