Hi reefing friends! I've been battling low phos and nitrate. Corals and fish generally seems healthy. Certain corals are growing slowly, primarily acroporas tenius/millipora, montipora digitata, and acanthastrea lordhowensis. Stylos are kickin' butt! Other softies are doing well also. In the latest testing is: Alk-7.5, Ammonia-0.13, Calc-430, Mag-1350, Nitrate-0.0, pH-8.2, Phos-0.03, Sal 1.025. All these are typical parameters. I don't have any algea/bacteria blooms or anything out of control. Just some slow growing corals. I don't like the ammonia levels but, can't seem to get them to drop below 0.10, even with dosing Prime. I dose NeoNitro to raise nitrates but, to no avail. Bottle says is if phos and nitrates don't increase after 24hrs then tank is "carbon limited". Researched this with mixed results on information. Does anyone have any experience with this? Any knowledge which might help? Also, maybe I'm trying to fix something that isn't broken? Thank you reefing friends!
"Oh Neo-Nitro You Didn't"
- Thread starter CCRox
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nh4 reading is likely a test kit error... especially if you are using API. Even if it is not, ammonia is the best way to get nitrogen to corals since they cannot process nitrate without first expending a bunch of energy to turn it back into ammonia. Corals that are not thriving often do not have the energy to do this.
Once you have a trace of no3 and po4, then that is enough. More won't help you. This is perhaps one of the largest injustices that manufacturers have placed on the hobby to get people to believe this... then parroted by thumb suckers in the hobby. Corals cannot use no3. Inorganic po4 is also not an optimum use - organically bound P is way better than po4. If corals needed more po4, then you would never have a surplus and it would be at zero all of the time. Higher levels of waste products do inhibit calcification and disrupt cellular processes, but at different levels for different corals, often of the same type... some acros will start to die at even 2.0 no3 and .10 po4 whereas other acros don't care about levels 10x, or more, of that amount.
What is crazy to me is that lighting is truly something where more can do good, yet people cheap/skimp out with heavy blues and as little wattage as possible... yet think that more waste products like no3 and po4 can help.
Dosing small amounts of ammonia is a more available source of nitrogen than dosing no3. However, nobody can really sell you this since you can get it at Ace Hardware for cheap.
In the end, the best tanks have high amounts of full spectrum light, feed the fish a ton with fish waste being excellent source of coral nutrients and keep residual levels of waste products low. Your tank needs nothing out of a bottle... ever.
Once you have a trace of no3 and po4, then that is enough. More won't help you. This is perhaps one of the largest injustices that manufacturers have placed on the hobby to get people to believe this... then parroted by thumb suckers in the hobby. Corals cannot use no3. Inorganic po4 is also not an optimum use - organically bound P is way better than po4. If corals needed more po4, then you would never have a surplus and it would be at zero all of the time. Higher levels of waste products do inhibit calcification and disrupt cellular processes, but at different levels for different corals, often of the same type... some acros will start to die at even 2.0 no3 and .10 po4 whereas other acros don't care about levels 10x, or more, of that amount.
What is crazy to me is that lighting is truly something where more can do good, yet people cheap/skimp out with heavy blues and as little wattage as possible... yet think that more waste products like no3 and po4 can help.
Dosing small amounts of ammonia is a more available source of nitrogen than dosing no3. However, nobody can really sell you this since you can get it at Ace Hardware for cheap.
In the end, the best tanks have high amounts of full spectrum light, feed the fish a ton with fish waste being excellent source of coral nutrients and keep residual levels of waste products low. Your tank needs nothing out of a bottle... ever.
SynDen
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Ya I tend to agree with @jda123 here. Dosing the nitrate really is just a band-aid of sorts. Instead you should be looking to address the reason why your NO3 and Phos are so low in the first place, and then fix that.
And if your test kit is reading that much NH4 but NO3 remains stuck I think the test kit(s) is bad, and you should replace them. Or at least take a water sample into your LFS (in your case take it to Aquatic Arts) and have them run tests on it to see if they match up. While you are there invest in some newer Salifert or Hanna test kits. They are the best test kits for the job.
And if your test kit is reading that much NH4 but NO3 remains stuck I think the test kit(s) is bad, and you should replace them. Or at least take a water sample into your LFS (in your case take it to Aquatic Arts) and have them run tests on it to see if they match up. While you are there invest in some newer Salifert or Hanna test kits. They are the best test kits for the job.
The po4 is likely low because aragonite rock and sand bind it... in huge quantities. When you dose, you just mostly fill the rock up. This cannot happen forever and the next thing that you know, your po4 is hella high and then you have to spend a lot to lower it.
Most no3 is low becuase of anoxic bacteria completing the nitrogen cycle and converting it into N gas.
Having lower levels of either are no problem. If you are feeding fish, then you have enough nitrogen and phosphorous (not no3 and po4 form maybe) but that does not really matter.
Most no3 is low becuase of anoxic bacteria completing the nitrogen cycle and converting it into N gas.
Having lower levels of either are no problem. If you are feeding fish, then you have enough nitrogen and phosphorous (not no3 and po4 form maybe) but that does not really matter.
@jda123 and @SynDen, thank you for the information! It seems like you're both saying: stop dosing NO3/PO4; confirm my tester (Hanna) works; and the NO3/PO4 levels are not worrisome as these are likely either from good eco/biology; and if NH level is confirmed accurate, I shouldn't worry too much as this helps corals metabolize NO3/PO4Any thoughts on the alk level? Also, regarding lighting, I agree with using as much of the spectrum as possible. For my 20gal I have a kessil 360x. The spectrum is skewed toward blue with lower red, green, etc. Whites are very low as, when testing, I noticed favorable results with algae and corals when whites were lower. One more thought! The ammonia checker could be reading NH4, not NH3? If it's NH4, that's good, right?
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SynDen
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As for the lighting, I have always found that Kessils are a bit lacking in spectrum and intensity. They do work well if you mix them with T5s or MH though. I would consider maybe adding 2-4 24" t5 bulbs. T5 retro kits are pretty cheap and can be easily mounted just about anywhere. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a Hybrid fixture that allows you to mount the kessil in between the t5s
@jda123 understood. No way, with home testing, to really tell which is being measured so, doesn't really matter? @SynDen I really like the kessil. Could the lacking spectrum be reason for slow acro growth? I figured the 360x would be plenty powerful for a 20 gal. Maybe I should put a PAR meter on it and see what's really happening? It seems lighting is second only to water quality, I don't want to use inferior lighting but, need a sleek lighting setup as the wife won't approve of an obtuse setup. Any suggestions?
Kessils are fine lights for most mixed tanks. If you want strong acro growth, then Kessils rarely do the job as well as other types of lights. If your stuff is growing OK, then who cares? Tearing out overgrown corals sucks. I would run more white for at least some of the day.
Personally, I would rather have best-of-breed lighting and average water quality, than the other way around. I do use metal halides, though, but also because I have large tanks and 12 to 15 Radions are not in the budget every few years as disposable appliances. The lights are the only thing that for-sure delivers energy to the corals.
Kessils are not full spectrum, which is why many supplement with T5s. Think of white/full light as exercise, diet, skin care and proper health. Blue light as spanx, makeup, hair extensions and flattering clothes. Both work great together, but if you drop the full spectrum and white, you eventually get to where your stuff will not look as good as it can even with all of the tricks. Full spectrum to grow and color corals and then use blue as you like to show them off.
The compound switches from nh3 to nh4 constantly at aquarium pH. A test kit changes the ph to make it all nh3 and then converts it into other compounds. If you really want to know the ins and outs, Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley has written a lot of it, but in the end you can just not worry about nh3 or nh4... they are essentially the same to us.
Personally, I would rather have best-of-breed lighting and average water quality, than the other way around. I do use metal halides, though, but also because I have large tanks and 12 to 15 Radions are not in the budget every few years as disposable appliances. The lights are the only thing that for-sure delivers energy to the corals.
Kessils are not full spectrum, which is why many supplement with T5s. Think of white/full light as exercise, diet, skin care and proper health. Blue light as spanx, makeup, hair extensions and flattering clothes. Both work great together, but if you drop the full spectrum and white, you eventually get to where your stuff will not look as good as it can even with all of the tricks. Full spectrum to grow and color corals and then use blue as you like to show them off.
The compound switches from nh3 to nh4 constantly at aquarium pH. A test kit changes the ph to make it all nh3 and then converts it into other compounds. If you really want to know the ins and outs, Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley has written a lot of it, but in the end you can just not worry about nh3 or nh4... they are essentially the same to us.
@jda123 that was a good way to present the lighting info. Never heard it put as such. Thank you! That analogy makes me want to change lighting to something with a better spectrum. I just really like the flutter effect, below water surface, Kessil provides. Any suggestion for a light which will work for a 20 gal but could be used in something larger like 40-50gal? Is there such a light?