Time for some newbie questions!

[Matt_Arian]

Hello everybody! I'm getting ready to start gathering the equipment for my build and I'm looking to get some advice. The majority of this is response to the thread "Things we did (WRONG) starting out in saltwater" (http://www.marinecolorado.org/forum...ings-we-did-(WRONG)-starting-out-in-saltwater). I wanted to do a quick run through to see what solutions can be found, but make it a separate thread in an attempt not to hijack the original.

A few things piqued my interest and I'm was hoping to pry a few answers from ye ole' salties. I haven't made any serious purchases yet, other than the items that I posted in my First Build thread (http://www.marinecolorado.org/forums/showthread.php?17597-First-Build!-20-gal-Refugium-Experiment), so I'd like to avoid as many bumps in the road as possible and hope that I cover my bases well enough. So, let the inquisition begin!

-I Assumed my heaters were powerful enough if the house temp drops below 50 degrees. (hard to test for most people, but I run 1 105-150g heater & 2 75-100g heaters in the 3 chambers in my sump. I blew one of the 75-100s, the 2nd couldn't keep up and the 150 was overpowered running 2000gph through 1 chamber of a 55g).

What was your solution? What brand of heater were you using, what did and what did you end up going with in the long run? I'm asking because my plan is to use a 100W primary and 75W secondary Eheim Jager heaters for a rough total of 36 gallons (tank and refugium combined).

-Used tap water at first and before my RO unit a couple of times used tap vs a trip to the store.. ("this will be the last time..."...but it wasn't)

I understand tap water is bad, and that not all RO/DI systems are made alike. Are you on city water or well water? Has anyone gone from one to the other and noticed a difference in quality? Was there a difference in how long the filters last?

-definitely tried fish that I wanted for a while knowing "it's like a 5% chance it won't get picked on or won't pick on the corals..." Basic fact. Research is free & trying it on a whim probably isn't free. When adding fish that could be problematic, have a plan B or escape route planned after you research things such as size, compatibility (liveaquaria is half decent at the size & gallons & compability...), gallons needed & territorial needs. (for tangs I acclimated with a colender (because I had 6) & If I see aggression with my tangs I leave it in the colender until they calm down otherwise I get rid. I avoid aggressive risks in system... Very messy @ times & never fun cleaning up a body or coral colony if it can be avoided.

I have used Live Aquaria as a general resource and cross reference guide, compared to Wikipedia and online forums. Are there any other guides (other than print and our :humble:super-awesome-turbo-excite community!) that you guys recommend for information and advice on saltwater care? Actually, now that I think about it, what books are good reading?

Has anyone used the Cobalt Aquatics MJ1200 or MJ400? I'm trying to keep the cost to a minimum, so going to an external inline pump or an over-priced fancy-pants powerhead is too much (both for the display tank and my wallet).

What salt mixes is everyone using? Is Tropic Marin any good?

I'm not sure on what I can put in my 20 gallon tank as far as fish go and I'm considering forgoing anything beyond a mated pair of clowns and corals. The refugium is going to be my little secret experiment for maintaining a filter-less/skimmer-less system (hopefully) so I don't want to flood the biofilter with too much waste material. Are there any members here, or maybe someone heard of someone doing something like this that I can get some tips or advice from? General feedback?

Has anyone tried plankton propagation? Don't know why, but I have a strong fascination in this area for some reason.

All boiling down to... Test kits. Everyone talks about testing as frequently as possible and I'm concerned with the quality of the testing. What are you guys using and is it worth it to go get equipment vs. test kits, i.e. pH meter vs. strips/tubes?

-last but not least, I didnt use my resources when I started. I failed to ask around or ask local vendors or LFS about the forums. Had I known about the forums I could have avoided a lot of hard ache. Please please please use the resources here, whether it's PMs to individuals who have successful systems, vendors or retail shops, there is no stupid question n this hobby. It is nature were talking about, an ecosystem in all of our houses that are 0% the exact same.

Taking advantage of this to the fullest!:boink: Maybe no stupid questions, but there may be many.

 

[Matt_Arian]

I have used Live Aquaria as a general resource and cross reference guide, compared to Wikipedia and online forums. Are there any other guides (other than print and our :humble:super-awesome-turbo-excite community!) that you guys recommend for information and advice on saltwater care? Actually, now that I think about it, what books are good reading?

Found it. Maybe if I did some more in-depth searching around the site, I'd actually find what I'm looking for...

http://www.marinecolorado.org/forums/showthread.php?1796-Compendium-of-Reef-Resources/

 

[fonduecat]

Nothing wrong with newbie questions! I ask a lot myself. I’m sure the guys at Elite Reef think I’m an odd ball. There are a few things I saw that I thought I could add a little to.

You are VERY right. Not all RO/DI systems are the same. A friend tried to use their drinking water RO/DI system that was in their house, all their fish died from trace elements. I personally use a RO system I bought at Liquid Kingdom for water changes, and if I need some quick water I use a DI tap filter (http://www.marinedepot.com/Aquarium...icals_API_MARS_Fishcare-AP4111-FIRODI-vi.html) I’m on city water, on the border of hard water, and haven’t had an issue with either filter type. RO filters last a lot longer than DI filters, the one I linked above can do about 50 gallons for me, again, I only use it when I need quick water (like forgetting to make extra for top off and being an hour away from evaporation drama).

Live Aquaria is my go-to place too. Generally I’ll do a google search to see if anyone in a forum someone had a discussion in what I was wondering.

For test kits, I use the API ones and never had an issue, except the pH can be hard to read. I’ve never had it match the color on the chart exact, ever. (http://www.marinedepot.com/Aquarium...icals_API_MARS_Fishcare-AP3313-FITKMK-vi.html)

Best of luck!

 

[Cake_Boss]

What was your solution? What brand of heater were you using, what did and what did you end up going with in the long run? I'm asking because my plan is to use a 100W primary and 75W secondary Eheim Jager heaters for a rough total of 36 gallons (tank and refugium combined).




I understand tap water is bad, and that not all RO/DI systems are made alike. Are you on city water or well water? Has anyone gone from one to the other and noticed a difference in quality? Was there a difference in how long the filters last?



Has anyone used the Cobalt Aquatics MJ1200 or MJ400? I'm trying to keep the cost to a minimum, so going to an external inline pump or an over-priced fancy-pants powerhead is too much (both for the display tank and my wallet).



I'm not sure on what I can put in my 20 gallon tank as far as fish go and I'm considering forgoing anything beyond a mated pair of clowns and corals. The refugium is going to be my little secret experiment for maintaining a filter-less/skimmer-less system (hopefully) so I don't want to flood the biofilter with too much waste material. Are there any members here, or maybe someone heard of someone doing something like this that I can get some tips or advice from? General feedback?



Has anyone tried plankton propagation? Don't know why, but I have a strong fascination in this area for some reason.



All boiling down to... Test kits. Everyone talks about testing as frequently as possible and I'm concerned with the quality of the testing. What are you guys using and is it worth it to go get equipment vs. test kits, i.e. pH meter vs. strips/tubes?

 

[Matt_Arian]

...Holy h. e. double hockey sticks. That heater is ridiculous. Ridiculously cool! But 150W for a total capacity of 36 gallons seems a bit over kill for me, although the remote probe would allow me to run it in the refugium. I do like the .5 F accuracy and the calibration mode, too. But $100? Ouch, but I can assume this is a situation where you get what you pay for....

I'm not overly concerned about cooling up here at 8,500 ft in Bailey. The tank will be located in the basement area and I have never seen the outdoor temp break 90. But keeping the frozen water bottles in a freezer for the "just in case" is an awesome idea!

< I disagree with all RO units being the same, I think they are. I'd opt for a Kold-Steril. Your call. I switched from tap to RO. I've used Greeley, Loveland, and FoCo tap, all grew great algae. I was constantly battling high po4 and no3. Switched to RO (same husbandry) and my nutrient levels went down. So yes, I'd never do a reef without a RO unit again.>

Hmmm... Well considering I'm on a 500 ft well with a relatively low trace mineral count (that was an expensive test.... 28 element breakdown), plus the fact that I'll be running an algae scrubber, wouldn't the high phosphorus and nitrate count be dealt with? That actually gave me some inspiration... Details to follow!

< Reference guides? WetWebMedia! Exhaust your internet search skills until you can answer most of the noob questions. Books? Read them all. Seriously, every author has a different take on the subject. IME, it's best to ask around at meetings (you'll know the people to ask by the circle around them at meetings, they are usually imparting knowledge on the rest of us), goto meetings (lots of excellent topics are discussed by helpful people), and finally forge your own way (dumb saying I know. By the time you read a few books and have countless discussions with other fish nerds, you will probably have formed your own opinion on what is right and wrong. Don't believe me? Ask/search for the best dkh to keep a reef tank at.>

Well now that I've really started picking the site apart in detail, I'm finding all sorts of good pages on husbandry and the like. Just an awesome community!

< Maxi jets! Yup, the reefing community loves them. You can find great deals on them. You might be better off buying a mod kit (don't the new ones come with the mod?) to use as a powerhead>

I currently have a Maxi Jet 1200 as the return from the refugium. It doesn't look like there is much of a difference between the two, other than branding. I'm more concerned about reliability for the 1200 return.

Cobalt Aquatics MJ
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Maxi Jet MJ
[attachment=65937:name]

< I subscribe to the theory that your tank will love stability. If you use Tropic Marin salt, use that. Don't switch brand to brand every bucket. My reasoning is because different brands have different parameters, by switching constantly you'll constantly be chasing numbers and your tank won't be any better off. I suggest buying a brand that is readily available and easily affordable for you, then dose to get your ideal chemistry. Then you can get to know your tank and easily keep track of growth.>

Agreed. I was more concerned about macro/micro/trace elements per brand type. I'm more about keeping a sense of "natural" products used, as I've found synthetic products have many unseen repercussions in today's modern world.

< Filter-less/skimmer-less? Look on the algae turf scrubber forums, your brain will explode from the skimmer-less goodness. There are pico fishes (ie. clown goby) that will work as well, unless you MUST have clowns. Your choice.>

Cool. I'll have some more time available today to look into this!

< Personally, no. Plenty here have. Hopefully they chime in.>

MBI has some GREAT reports and summaries on culturing plankton and micro algae. As I start to pickup on the methods, I'll be sure to post the information on MASC.

< I didn't get reliable/ consistent results from the strips, bummer right? API is what lots of people use. Personally I found it hard to guess the colors. I did Salifert for awhile, I got way more coordinated. I used Red Sea kits, easier for me than Salifert and similar results. Some people have a hard time with Red Sea kits though. Eventually, I got Hanna checkers. Easier to perform, not as easy on the wallet.>

My buddy uses API for his testing (when he actually remembers to check...) and I do like the simplicity and ease of the kit, but there is no replacement for precision, other than lots of cash... What do people struggle with for the Red Sea kits? I would like to upgrade to equipment vs. consumables for testing, but the walletfish will need to fatten up before I harvest it.

Hopefully, I helped a little.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk HD

Always!
-Cheers!

 

[jda123]

Eheim Jager heaters are very good. Just get one. Maxijets are also fine - the marineland ones have the flow and powerhead adapters in the box.

RO DI is less about phosphates and nitrates and more about hard metals. TDS meters don't find organics, so N and P would not even show up, but salt, copper, iron, etc. will. Our water here is Longmont has about 50 TDS and most of it is salt and chlorine, if you can believe the water report. The water is pretty good. It is probably fine to use without RO/DI, but you should use it anyway. There is no detectable N or P in our tap water with Salifert or LaMotte kits (tested). The RO membrane will let N and P through (organics), so the carbon block is the only thing that helps here... and maybe the DI resin. In Missouri, our TDS was around 400 and there was enough aluminum, iron and copper in it to kill inverts over time... and N and P higher than in our tanks. Anyway, I highly suggest RO/DI, but not for N and P issues. FWIW, most "drinking water" RO/DI stations will have TDS around 5-6... this is good for drinking, but you might want better for your reef. A TDS meter is about $10. You can use your N and P test kits on tap water as well as tank water to see where you stand.

API test kits are fine for ammonia and nitrite. I would use salifert for calcium, alk, phosphate and nitrate. The Red Sea, Salifert, LaMotte and nearly every other one uses the same reagents in different quantities, so they are about the same for reliability. They are all about the same IMO.

Depending on what you want to keep, just about any salt is fine. If you want to specialize, then there might be a salt with more calcium/alk, lower metals, or whatever, that might be better to get from the 80-90% level to the absolute top... but don't sweat this now. Instant Ocean is the best all-around cheap salt IMO. If you are on Tropic Marin and don't mind the price, then I don't think that you can do better. Pick one and stay with it unless you feel the need to change.

 

[Matt_Arian]

Thanks jda! Good to know I was at least somewhat right on the heaters! I thought the Cobalt's had the powerhead adapters, too?

I'm pretty much sold on an RO/DI, as trips down the hill and back again for 35 gallons of water everytime make it not worth it. You do make a good point with the metals, which I was thinking of earlier. This area is notorious for sulfide mineral deposits (this is mining country, after all!), so Cu, Pb, Fe, Zn, Ag, Au greedy_dollars and even uranium are a common occurrences in the water up here. So I think utilizing a RO/DI unit will be paramount.

After doing a little more research about mitigating nitrogen and phosphorus, I'm not too concerned with the levels. Turns out the zooxanthellae in some clams consume a good amount, so I might have to try this out. I'm not planning on stocking my tank for at least the first 6 months, as I would like to see as many critters come to me for free (sorta) than dishing out a couple grand on specimens. I do believe the tank should have a good stable cycling on it after that point, so I'll start really focusing on the big three when it comes to a later time down the road.

Thanks for the heads up on the reagents, that's good to know. I'm hear you on the salt; I might try to do a little experimenting before I settle on a particular brand, just to be persnickety. Looks to me like salt preference is a very hotly debated subject amongst reefers and professionals alike, so I might as well come to my own conclusions.

Thanks fellas! The more I know now before I start buying equipment, the better!