WTB/WTT for Doser(s) or Calcium Reactor
- Thread starter MuralReef
- Start date
This is gonna be long...so bear with me...
As to whether you can use the regulator to adjust the pressure, that depends on the regulator...some are designed to be dialed down between 0-100 psi...but most of the cheapy ones are not...they won't tell you that though.
That's why a dual-stage regulator is helpful. It will take the 800psi coming from the tank, and reduce the output pressure significantly...there is a wide range, but most of them have an output of 15 psi-50 psi depending on the model.
I'm not saying that the method of adjusting the knob on the single stage regulators won't work, just that it's not the safest way to go about things...it's not intended for that application. The issue with using the regulator to adjust the flow is that a cheap single stage regulator's flow will fluctuate as the pressure in the tank changes. The pressure will change with ambient temperature, as well as the volume of liquid CO2 in the tank. You will be constantly trying to adjust the flow, and it will not be accurate at all...this may or may not be a concern to some people, but if you are looking for consistency then that's not the best method. Also, with cheap regulators, as the tank empties and you open up the regulator to allow more flow with the reduced pressure, you risk having the remaining contents of the tank dump all at once when the pressure in the tank dips below the operational pressure of the regulator's diaphragm. Not a common occurrence, but a definite risk with a cheap regulator. It's happened to me in combination with a cheap needle valve...I nuked my tank, and it sucks.
Why does this happen? By adjusting the pressure at the regulator on a single stage unit, you are using the diaphragm of the single stage unit to control the pressure, which it is not designed to do (again, speaking about most of these cheaper hobbyist regulators). If it fails (more common with a cheap unit), the contents of your CO2 tank will blow by the regulator, blow by the cheap needle valve (which is probably rated at about 40-50 psi) and dump a nasty amount of CO2 into your system. A dual stage regulator has 2 diaphragms; you open the first one fully and 800psi from the tank moves past the first diaphragm, through the regulator, and hits the 2nd diaphragm, which is specifically designed to operate at a safe range (again, typically 15-50 psi). Both valves are fully open, and working at their intended operational pressure. Your needle valve that comes after the dual stage regulator has little to no risk of failure...whereas variations in temperature, tank pressure, and failure of the diaphragm in a cheap single stage regulator (when you are trying to control the flow in a manner that it's not intended for) can put the needle valve (and your tank) at a risk if the pressure exceeds the range of the needle valve when the regulator fails.
I know using the regulator to control flow is one of those things that just about everyone does...and I also know that the aquarium hobby has started producing inexpensive regulators for calcium reactors and planted tanks...and people will probably keep using their regulators to control the flow of CO2 and resulting pressure that goes to the needle valve. I'm not saying it won't work...I'm saying it's risky. The best thing you can do is at least pick up a quality metering valve for 20 bucks to reduce the risk of failure. If the cheap regulator fails, then at least your needle valve will save you...you will know your regulator is going when you're constantly having to make adjustments and can't get a consistent bubble count.
You can pick up a good single stage regulator used, and not have to worry about this issue...they are made to be adjusted/dialed down to a safe operational pressure to be used with your needle valve. Most of the stuff we have on the market as hobbyist regulators are not up to those standards...I've seen posts on several reefing forums where people are wondering why they are constantly having to adjust their regulator and can't get it to flow consistently...in the end the collective answer is: get a bubble counter and check it regularly. My point is that with quality equipment, you won't have to do that. It's worthwhile to just invest in a quality single stage regulator up front. That being said...there are quality hobbyist regulators on the market, you just need to be discerning and do your research...the kit on amazon that goes for about $100 is best avoided.
Take what I say with a grain of salt...this is all just my opinion based on my own misfortune...I had a cheap DIY regulator fail, and I had a cheap hobbyist regulator fail soon after that. At least a quality needle valve gives you some extra assurance with an inexpensive regulator...if the diaphragm fails then chances are the needle valve will at least hold up for you...even one rated at 80 psi will typically not instantly fail if your regulator diaphragm goes. A cheap needle valve, on the other hand, probably will...that combination is what caused me to nuke my tanks not once, but twice. I learned my lesson and built a quality regulator after that, and never looked back. I got out of the hobby and sold it, but am about to jump back in, and will be building another good regulator.
One thing that's perplexed me being on the reef side of things...is how prominent these cheap aquarium-grade regulators are in reefing. The planted tank community has essentially ditched those and shunned them half a decade ago, and most people are scouring ebay and building DIY units for a larger initial investment...knowing that they are safer to run on their systems. Considering how much more expensive our side of the hobby is...I'm surprised to see that this hasn't caught on yet.
Anyway...I'm hopping off my soapbox. Hopefully this hasn't scared you off from using your current regulator, Mike....and hopefully I haven't stepped on any toes in talking down so much about these cheaper regulators
It looks like more of an investment up front...but with some searching on ebay and some patience you can build a quality system for marginally more than one of the cheaper hobbyist regulators and know that your equipment will last for years. That being said, if you are going to use a money-saver hobbyist regulator, at least hook up a reliable $20 needle valve and protect your investment.
Edit: Thanks for the posts above pointing out the $250 unit There are definitely quality units on the hobbyist side, but unfortunately they are few and far between compared to the number of junk units floating around. I have been meaning to post about regulators for a long while and never got around to it...like I said...was just curious to see how many cheap units are in this hobby.
As to whether you can use the regulator to adjust the pressure, that depends on the regulator...some are designed to be dialed down between 0-100 psi...but most of the cheapy ones are not...they won't tell you that though.
That's why a dual-stage regulator is helpful. It will take the 800psi coming from the tank, and reduce the output pressure significantly...there is a wide range, but most of them have an output of 15 psi-50 psi depending on the model.
I'm not saying that the method of adjusting the knob on the single stage regulators won't work, just that it's not the safest way to go about things...it's not intended for that application. The issue with using the regulator to adjust the flow is that a cheap single stage regulator's flow will fluctuate as the pressure in the tank changes. The pressure will change with ambient temperature, as well as the volume of liquid CO2 in the tank. You will be constantly trying to adjust the flow, and it will not be accurate at all...this may or may not be a concern to some people, but if you are looking for consistency then that's not the best method. Also, with cheap regulators, as the tank empties and you open up the regulator to allow more flow with the reduced pressure, you risk having the remaining contents of the tank dump all at once when the pressure in the tank dips below the operational pressure of the regulator's diaphragm. Not a common occurrence, but a definite risk with a cheap regulator. It's happened to me in combination with a cheap needle valve...I nuked my tank, and it sucks.
Why does this happen? By adjusting the pressure at the regulator on a single stage unit, you are using the diaphragm of the single stage unit to control the pressure, which it is not designed to do (again, speaking about most of these cheaper hobbyist regulators). If it fails (more common with a cheap unit), the contents of your CO2 tank will blow by the regulator, blow by the cheap needle valve (which is probably rated at about 40-50 psi) and dump a nasty amount of CO2 into your system. A dual stage regulator has 2 diaphragms; you open the first one fully and 800psi from the tank moves past the first diaphragm, through the regulator, and hits the 2nd diaphragm, which is specifically designed to operate at a safe range (again, typically 15-50 psi). Both valves are fully open, and working at their intended operational pressure. Your needle valve that comes after the dual stage regulator has little to no risk of failure...whereas variations in temperature, tank pressure, and failure of the diaphragm in a cheap single stage regulator (when you are trying to control the flow in a manner that it's not intended for) can put the needle valve (and your tank) at a risk if the pressure exceeds the range of the needle valve when the regulator fails.
I know using the regulator to control flow is one of those things that just about everyone does...and I also know that the aquarium hobby has started producing inexpensive regulators for calcium reactors and planted tanks...and people will probably keep using their regulators to control the flow of CO2 and resulting pressure that goes to the needle valve. I'm not saying it won't work...I'm saying it's risky. The best thing you can do is at least pick up a quality metering valve for 20 bucks to reduce the risk of failure. If the cheap regulator fails, then at least your needle valve will save you...you will know your regulator is going when you're constantly having to make adjustments and can't get a consistent bubble count.
You can pick up a good single stage regulator used, and not have to worry about this issue...they are made to be adjusted/dialed down to a safe operational pressure to be used with your needle valve. Most of the stuff we have on the market as hobbyist regulators are not up to those standards...I've seen posts on several reefing forums where people are wondering why they are constantly having to adjust their regulator and can't get it to flow consistently...in the end the collective answer is: get a bubble counter and check it regularly. My point is that with quality equipment, you won't have to do that. It's worthwhile to just invest in a quality single stage regulator up front. That being said...there are quality hobbyist regulators on the market, you just need to be discerning and do your research...the kit on amazon that goes for about $100 is best avoided.
Take what I say with a grain of salt...this is all just my opinion based on my own misfortune...I had a cheap DIY regulator fail, and I had a cheap hobbyist regulator fail soon after that. At least a quality needle valve gives you some extra assurance with an inexpensive regulator...if the diaphragm fails then chances are the needle valve will at least hold up for you...even one rated at 80 psi will typically not instantly fail if your regulator diaphragm goes. A cheap needle valve, on the other hand, probably will...that combination is what caused me to nuke my tanks not once, but twice. I learned my lesson and built a quality regulator after that, and never looked back. I got out of the hobby and sold it, but am about to jump back in, and will be building another good regulator.
One thing that's perplexed me being on the reef side of things...is how prominent these cheap aquarium-grade regulators are in reefing. The planted tank community has essentially ditched those and shunned them half a decade ago, and most people are scouring ebay and building DIY units for a larger initial investment...knowing that they are safer to run on their systems. Considering how much more expensive our side of the hobby is...I'm surprised to see that this hasn't caught on yet.
Anyway...I'm hopping off my soapbox. Hopefully this hasn't scared you off from using your current regulator, Mike....and hopefully I haven't stepped on any toes in talking down so much about these cheaper regulators
It looks like more of an investment up front...but with some searching on ebay and some patience you can build a quality system for marginally more than one of the cheaper hobbyist regulators and know that your equipment will last for years. That being said, if you are going to use a money-saver hobbyist regulator, at least hook up a reliable $20 needle valve and protect your investment. Edit: Thanks for the posts above pointing out the $250 unit
There are definitely quality units on the hobbyist side, but unfortunately they are few and far between compared to the number of junk units floating around. I have been meaning to post about regulators for a long while and never got around to it...like I said...was just curious to see how many cheap units are in this hobby.
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Khalis you have not scared me off. I wasn't sure if I was going to use that regulator in the first place, but now I am pretty sure I won't. I can keep pouring in calc and alk for a few more days while I wait for parts to come in. I am not rushing into setting this up since I want to do it right the first time. I jumped on a low cost dosing pump the first time and look where that got me. It didn't kill anything but it has caused quite a few headaches. The aquariumplants regulator is looking better and better since it would seem that telling quality from junk can be difficult in the hobby, and I already know that it is quality.
I do have a solenoid, bubble counter and even a check valve if you want to come up northish and get 'em. They are on old units that I will not use again.
I have never had a regulator fail... just the needle valves get unreliable when they get old and corroded with saltwater (10 this minute, 40 the next)... so I buy Carbon Dosers now. I don't have the ones with the digital read out - not sure why I need to know that I dosed 18,809,403 bubbles of CO2. $250 of year after year reliability is cheap in this hobby IMO.
Every hobby based regulators that I have seen are dual stage - just some don't have a second gauge and knob. They all go from 800 to about 20 (first state) and then out the door the the bubble counter (second stage). Some have a knob and you can make 20 to from 0 to 100, or so, but most end up about 20ish. In the end, it does not matter if they have that second gauge or not. The pinpoint is a good regulator with a fixed first stage.
I have never had a regulator fail... just the needle valves get unreliable when they get old and corroded with saltwater (10 this minute, 40 the next)... so I buy Carbon Dosers now. I don't have the ones with the digital read out - not sure why I need to know that I dosed 18,809,403 bubbles of CO2. $250 of year after year reliability is cheap in this hobby IMO.
Every hobby based regulators that I have seen are dual stage - just some don't have a second gauge and knob. They all go from 800 to about 20 (first state) and then out the door the the bubble counter (second stage). Some have a knob and you can make 20 to from 0 to 100, or so, but most end up about 20ish. In the end, it does not matter if they have that second gauge or not. The pinpoint is a good regulator with a fixed first stage.
hmmm....Which ones are dual stage? I always see inexpensive single stage regulators (milwaukee, azoo) in the hobby. The 2 gauges and ability to step down the pressure doesn't make it a dual-stage regulator, and I feel like that's where a lot of the confusion comes in.
The easy, quick way to tell the difference between the two types of regulators is that a single stage regulator typically has a flat back; a dual stage regulator will have a cylindrical protrusion sticking out of the back of the regulator. The springs on the regulators are fairly large...the knob on the end "cylinder" sticking out of the front of the regulator is spring #1. On a single stage regulator that's all you will see. A dual stage regulator has a 2nd spring for the 2nd diaphragm...spring #2 will be sticking out of the back of the unit. All of the hobby regulators I've seen don't have this, and only have a flat back and no extension on the back of the body for the 2nd spring.
Since I'll be shopping shortly...it'd be nice to know that there are additional options out there. I checked out that aquarium plants carbon doser...and it looks to be a well built unit, and I'm glad to hear that you've had good results with it. But it is a single stage regulator...probably better quality than the Milwaukee, but single stage nonetheless. Like I said though, dual stage isn't really a must-have in the hobby, it's just a bit more reliable. Personally, if I were needing a regulator I'd just go DIY and at least pick up a medical/lab grade single stage regulator and build my own for the price and peace of mind. I'm not saying they all fail or are junk...but dual stage regulators unfortunately just don't make it into our hobby often, from what I've seen...and I don't know that there's a such thing as a junk dual stage regulator since they typically produce those for applications that require a higher amount of precision.
One of the few companies I've seen that offers a dual-stage regulator to hobbyists is green leaf aquariums: http://greenleafaquariums.com/products/gla-pro-ss-co2-regulator-two-stage.html SUPER pricey though...you could go DIY for half that. If you find a hobby regulator, best thing to do is probably to read as many reviews and dig around as much as you can, since most will use a no-name brand regulator for their products.
As an aside: as you pointed out though, the worst that will happen if you're dripping from your calcium reactor is that your media will melt if the regulator goes bad. Probably not as large a concern as in the planted tank hobby where your regulator going bad = suffocating your fish within a couple hours since the CO2 is being pumped directly into the tank. So I suppose that's why its generally accepted to skimp a bit on regulators in reefing. I've just been left with a bad taste in my mouth after doing so in the past and would rather pay for the reliability. I'd imagine that pH fluctuation could still be a concern if the regulator did fail and the pH in your media chamber was drastically reduced while dosing continued...but since I don't run a reactor I don't have the experience to speak to that. For now...I'll be picking up a quality dual stage regulator for a planned pico planted tank build...and after I move into a more permanent residence will be re-purposing that regulator for a calcium reactor, in all likelihood.
cheers
The easy, quick way to tell the difference between the two types of regulators is that a single stage regulator typically has a flat back; a dual stage regulator will have a cylindrical protrusion sticking out of the back of the regulator. The springs on the regulators are fairly large...the knob on the end "cylinder" sticking out of the front of the regulator is spring #1. On a single stage regulator that's all you will see. A dual stage regulator has a 2nd spring for the 2nd diaphragm...spring #2 will be sticking out of the back of the unit. All of the hobby regulators I've seen don't have this, and only have a flat back and no extension on the back of the body for the 2nd spring.
Since I'll be shopping shortly...it'd be nice to know that there are additional options out there. I checked out that aquarium plants carbon doser...and it looks to be a well built unit, and I'm glad to hear that you've had good results with it. But it is a single stage regulator...probably better quality than the Milwaukee, but single stage nonetheless. Like I said though, dual stage isn't really a must-have in the hobby, it's just a bit more reliable. Personally, if I were needing a regulator I'd just go DIY and at least pick up a medical/lab grade single stage regulator and build my own for the price and peace of mind. I'm not saying they all fail or are junk...but dual stage regulators unfortunately just don't make it into our hobby often, from what I've seen...and I don't know that there's a such thing as a junk dual stage regulator since they typically produce those for applications that require a higher amount of precision.
One of the few companies I've seen that offers a dual-stage regulator to hobbyists is green leaf aquariums: http://greenleafaquariums.com/products/gla-pro-ss-co2-regulator-two-stage.html SUPER pricey though...you could go DIY for half that. If you find a hobby regulator, best thing to do is probably to read as many reviews and dig around as much as you can, since most will use a no-name brand regulator for their products.
As an aside: as you pointed out though, the worst that will happen if you're dripping from your calcium reactor is that your media will melt if the regulator goes bad. Probably not as large a concern as in the planted tank hobby where your regulator going bad = suffocating your fish within a couple hours since the CO2 is being pumped directly into the tank. So I suppose that's why its generally accepted to skimp a bit on regulators in reefing. I've just been left with a bad taste in my mouth after doing so in the past and would rather pay for the reliability. I'd imagine that pH fluctuation could still be a concern if the regulator did fail and the pH in your media chamber was drastically reduced while dosing continued...but since I don't run a reactor I don't have the experience to speak to that. For now...I'll be picking up a quality dual stage regulator for a planned pico planted tank build...and after I move into a more permanent residence will be re-purposing that regulator for a calcium reactor, in all likelihood.
cheers
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I was mixing terms. My apologies. I do see that even Marine Depot has changed their wording from stage to gauge anymore. Back in the day, everybody called them stages and I guess that I am full of too much dogma. I do even have a Victor in my garage that is a true dual stage and know the difference - it is for O2, but perhaps it is good for CO2. Forget what I said.
The regulators are the easy part of the equation. Even a cheapo milwaukee is capable of restricting the pressure quite adequately, if you keep the saltwater out of them. Check valves are super important. The issue are in the needle valves and solenoids that get unreliable over time if they get any kind of moisture - solenoids especially if you use a controller to on/off them all of the time.
IME, Milwaukee are junk. Carbon Doser is the best - reliable control. M3 and Pinpoint are solid units that will work very well for years and years if you keep the moisture out of them. Aquamedic and Tunze are quality from Germany like you would expect. Chinese units might be even worse than the Milwaukee, but I have had minimal person experince with these since I just won't use them and give them away. FWIW - I have a Milwaukee stuff on my torches and they are quite good - I just don't think that they are made for the humidity and moisture.
When setting up a reactor, remember this 40/10. 40 drips and 10 bubbles is a really good place to start to melt the media. Tune as necessary, but you won't have to tune it too much. Increase/decrease with the ratio.
The regulators are the easy part of the equation. Even a cheapo milwaukee is capable of restricting the pressure quite adequately, if you keep the saltwater out of them. Check valves are super important. The issue are in the needle valves and solenoids that get unreliable over time if they get any kind of moisture - solenoids especially if you use a controller to on/off them all of the time.
IME, Milwaukee are junk. Carbon Doser is the best - reliable control. M3 and Pinpoint are solid units that will work very well for years and years if you keep the moisture out of them. Aquamedic and Tunze are quality from Germany like you would expect. Chinese units might be even worse than the Milwaukee, but I have had minimal person experince with these since I just won't use them and give them away. FWIW - I have a Milwaukee stuff on my torches and they are quite good - I just don't think that they are made for the humidity and moisture.
When setting up a reactor, remember this 40/10. 40 drips and 10 bubbles is a really good place to start to melt the media. Tune as necessary, but you won't have to tune it too much. Increase/decrease with the ratio.
If you don't mind waiting for the right deal and getting a little spendy you could go with something like a dual stage Harris in front on the carbon doser bubble counter/regulator. This will give you maximum control and stability no matter how full or low your CO2 is.
down the road if you want to take it to the ultimate in CA RX stability get a cole Parmer 100% duty cycle peristaltic pump to drive and control the effluent. These are stupid pricey brand new but can be found used for around $300
here is a thread my buddy Mark put together for RC regarding masterflex pumps and CA RXs. Some of the people that have been around MASC for a while will know Mark for being extremely talented in this hobby and an amazing engineer. This is obviously a bit off the beaten path for many running a reactor but I think that's mostly only because it's the most expensive way to do it and not a lot of people seem to know about it. I know many folks here don't like RC but this thread is worth the read if you truly want set and forget. By the way this method requires no pH probe to control the reactor. In fact using a probe in a control fashion only hinders the performance and stability. If a pH probe is used its only as a safety net.
This is the very same setup going on my 200.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2368618&highlight=tkeracer
down the road if you want to take it to the ultimate in CA RX stability get a cole Parmer 100% duty cycle peristaltic pump to drive and control the effluent. These are stupid pricey brand new but can be found used for around $300
here is a thread my buddy Mark put together for RC regarding masterflex pumps and CA RXs. Some of the people that have been around MASC for a while will know Mark for being extremely talented in this hobby and an amazing engineer. This is obviously a bit off the beaten path for many running a reactor but I think that's mostly only because it's the most expensive way to do it and not a lot of people seem to know about it. I know many folks here don't like RC but this thread is worth the read if you truly want set and forget. By the way this method requires no pH probe to control the reactor. In fact using a probe in a control fashion only hinders the performance and stability. If a pH probe is used its only as a safety net.
This is the very same setup going on my 200.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2368618&highlight=tkeracer
I am going to switch to something like you posted with the medical doser and carbon doser for my new system, while I got fairly good in the past 10 years with running my reactor the old fashioned way it required to much tinkering for my tastes, Ill probably keep that setup for my softy tank where stability isnt nearly as important.
Some people use mineral oil, glycerine or baby oil since it won't evaporate and won't get back into the ball valve. You can get glycerine at just about any pharmacy - sometimes you have to ask. On that Pinpoint, there is no check valve between the bubble counter and the regulator and they can rust if you use water. You could see what America Marine says?
Some reactors have their own bubble counters that fill up with tank water when the feed pump is running - integrated. If you have this, then no need in the regulator.
You can actually buy bubble counter liquid.
Some reactors have their own bubble counters that fill up with tank water when the feed pump is running - integrated. If you have this, then no need in the regulator.
You can actually buy bubble counter liquid.