Help - Hyposalinity in a fish only display tank?
- Thread starter daverf
- Start date
Update...impact of hyposalinity adjustments on FOWLR tank...
I've continued 40G fresh water changes and got to 1.009 tonight...one more change is required to get to 1.008. Ammonia is fine, fish seem OK, but the puffer has me confused. Not sure if he rallied and is coming around, or still declining and near death. I'm sure the salinity drop stress isn't helping, except that hopefully it is killing the Ich faster than it is killing him. I do see giant spots on him now - which seems to be the Ich "exploding" (If I understand the effect that osmotic shock has on invertebrates)? I don't know if that's it or not.
One thing that has changed - the water stinks! No haze and no cycling, just smells. Must be algae die off?
I've continued 40G fresh water changes and got to 1.009 tonight...one more change is required to get to 1.008. Ammonia is fine, fish seem OK, but the puffer has me confused. Not sure if he rallied and is coming around, or still declining and near death. I'm sure the salinity drop stress isn't helping, except that hopefully it is killing the Ich faster than it is killing him. I do see giant spots on him now - which seems to be the Ich "exploding" (If I understand the effect that osmotic shock has on invertebrates)? I don't know if that's it or not.
One thing that has changed - the water stinks! No haze and no cycling, just smells. Must be algae die off?
Thanks Freedom. Got a big water change ready to go just in case, and added more carbon. Smell went down a bit, coralline looks to be dieing off quick, and water is a little hazy. I'm wondering if its the algae, but will be ready if anything else looks to be a problem.
Puffer has no doubt made a full recovery. Hypo saved a fish...and is under way with good signs. Oh yeah!
Andrew planted the seed of splurge in my brain and I loaded up the tank this past weekend. I saw a little Ammonia as a result (.25ppm)...so dosed with Dr. Tim's One and Only and also Topfin Bacterial Supplement (double dose for latter). I see continued Ammonia at that level, but Nitrate one night after. I'm sure the bacterial filter took a shock from hypo, but the big change is having added ~30" of hog eating predators plus a small eel). So, keeping an eye on water parms...Reefman did you deal with ammonia trace after getting to hypo level and loading up your fish?
I think I will try to drop the salinity to 1.008 after everything settles. I've read that final/single point can be the difference between Ich and none for some who've run hypo. I'm inclined to believe the Ich I'm dealing with is very tough, so I'll give this a shot...
Puffer has no doubt made a full recovery. Hypo saved a fish...and is under way with good signs. Oh yeah!
Andrew planted the seed of splurge in my brain and I loaded up the tank this past weekend. I saw a little Ammonia as a result (.25ppm)...so dosed with Dr. Tim's One and Only and also Topfin Bacterial Supplement (double dose for latter). I see continued Ammonia at that level, but Nitrate one night after. I'm sure the bacterial filter took a shock from hypo, but the big change is having added ~30" of hog eating predators plus a small eel). So, keeping an eye on water parms...Reefman did you deal with ammonia trace after getting to hypo level and loading up your fish?
I think I will try to drop the salinity to 1.008 after everything settles. I've read that final/single point can be the difference between Ich and none for some who've run hypo. I'm inclined to believe the Ich I'm dealing with is very tough, so I'll give this a shot...
Andrew, how often did you do water changes as you got started? How long did you take to drop to 1.010?
I think I may have a problem. Small recycle is started, but Ammonia trace still there. Researching/asking has lead me to believe the livestock added shouldn't have caused an ammonia swing on such a big system with established live rock. I think my bacteria filter is taking a hit from the hypo.
No spots anywhere or on anyone, but the puffer doesn't seem to be doing well again. I'm going to try a huge water change tomorrow, and add Prime until my reservoir is ready. Not good...
Anyone have thoughts?
I think I may have a problem. Small recycle is started, but Ammonia trace still there. Researching/asking has lead me to believe the livestock added shouldn't have caused an ammonia swing on such a big system with established live rock. I think my bacteria filter is taking a hit from the hypo.
No spots anywhere or on anyone, but the puffer doesn't seem to be doing well again. I'm going to try a huge water change tomorrow, and add Prime until my reservoir is ready. Not good...
Anyone have thoughts?
I have about 400g total water volume. I just do my monthly water change as normal. I dropped my salinity over 4 days. Im not sure whats causing your ammonia spike. Could be stuff dying off from your lr still. Did all your snails and crabs get pulled? Perhaps a couple were overlooked in the depths of some rock. Might be worth digging around. Does your water still stink? Thats what stumps me as i never had the stinky water during the process. A water change imo couldnt hurt anything.
No inverts were in the tank, except any lr hitchhikers that survived the copper meds I tried a while ago (before this).
I think you're right. This is LR die off. Now I remember a similar smell came from a few of my rocks when I first got them (shipped from Fiji) and had to cure them. At the time I researched and found it was probably death of an encrusted sponge. At this point, I'm speculating that the sponge regrew and died due to the salinity change. So water changes, here we go...lots and for a while...fun fun...
I also found there is a lot of display tank hyposalinity failure reports on the 'net, almost as many as there are success stories. Seems I am at the start of a common failure curve, Ammonia that lingers. Makes me wonder if there are some sponge types that make it into SW tanks that can be a die off hazard if hyposalinity is tried. Hmmm.
I think you're right. This is LR die off. Now I remember a similar smell came from a few of my rocks when I first got them (shipped from Fiji) and had to cure them. At the time I researched and found it was probably death of an encrusted sponge. At this point, I'm speculating that the sponge regrew and died due to the salinity change. So water changes, here we go...lots and for a while...fun fun...
I also found there is a lot of display tank hyposalinity failure reports on the 'net, almost as many as there are success stories. Seems I am at the start of a common failure curve, Ammonia that lingers. Makes me wonder if there are some sponge types that make it into SW tanks that can be a die off hazard if hyposalinity is tried. Hmmm.
Heck no! No apology necessary homes. Who would've known. Anyway, I'm glad to be on this path, as I would prefer full eradication in my display. Had I known this could occur, I probably would've done it anyway and braced myself for the die off ride. So gracias amigo for getting me on the path.
IMO I think it is worth the risk to try hypo in display, if other measures haven't really worked. Just as there are failure stories on hypo in display tank, seems there are even more failure stories on running a tank fallow for months with white spots appearing after restocking.
I dosed with Prime and will do the water change. I read that doing a WC with Ammonia present could cause more toxicity, since while you are diluting exporting you are also likely raising pH with the new water, which is a dangerous thing to do with any toxic Ammonia present. So, sounds like it is safter to neutralize the toxic Ammonia fully before change.
I've also thrown a ton more seeded biological media in the tank. Fun times.
IMO I think it is worth the risk to try hypo in display, if other measures haven't really worked. Just as there are failure stories on hypo in display tank, seems there are even more failure stories on running a tank fallow for months with white spots appearing after restocking.
I dosed with Prime and will do the water change. I read that doing a WC with Ammonia present could cause more toxicity, since while you are diluting exporting you are also likely raising pH with the new water, which is a dangerous thing to do with any toxic Ammonia present. So, sounds like it is safter to neutralize the toxic Ammonia fully before change.
I've also thrown a ton more seeded biological media in the tank. Fun times.
Sso it hast to be differences in live rock organisms as the cause for my water quality crash. interesting.
fish are hanging on, still seeing ammonia and nitrate rise very slightly, but reducing it with prime. 40% WC last night, 40% WC tomorrow night, my opinion is it will get me over the die off hump and I'll be fine after that with water quality. If I can deal with the other problem in my tank, that is... Eel, needs to get pulled. It's gnashing everyone, and looks like some wounds might have slight infection (probably water quality causing). fun times continue.
fish are hanging on, still seeing ammonia and nitrate rise very slightly, but reducing it with prime. 40% WC last night, 40% WC tomorrow night, my opinion is it will get me over the die off hump and I'll be fine after that with water quality. If I can deal with the other problem in my tank, that is... Eel, needs to get pulled. It's gnashing everyone, and looks like some wounds might have slight infection (probably water quality causing). fun times continue.
Hey Dave, how's the hypo going? Do you think it would be possible for you to type out everything you've done? Maybe we could get Andrew to do this as well. I'm going to be starting hypo in my display shortly and would like as much information as possible.
My biggest question is the live rock. How much of a cycle do you expect when you bring the salinity back up to normal operating range? I'm not sure if I should leave mine in or pull it out.
My biggest question is the live rock. How much of a cycle do you expect when you bring the salinity back up to normal operating range? I'm not sure if I should leave mine in or pull it out.
You bet, brother...here it is...wonder if I should just pull this into a different thread...well anyway:
Basically followed the guidance of some of the posters on Hypo (especially Freedom and Andrew per above), and put a plan together.
PREP:
-Water change capacity - I already had 40% WC ability (total volume 200G). No formula here, just pointing out how big my volume was (bigger the better)
-Refractomer - ordered one. More important to have on hand for your last water change (to hone in on target SG), and to maintain. You can start dropping salinity without one.
-ATO - had already installed (JBJ ATO). Ditto to above.
-Emergency ammonia reducers - Bacterial supplements (Dr. Tim's One and ONly, Aquafin), Seachem Prime
-Buffer with Seachem product (forgot name)
STEP 1: DROP SALINITY
-WC with RO/DI freshwater, matched for temperature and pH.
-Can find all kinds of suggestions on how fast is too fast, here and on the net. Basically I dropped it as fast as possible, hoping that I would save my porc puffer who had already started the death march. Fast as possible for me was: mix RO to full storage capacity, massive WC, wait again (~40 hrs) to full capacity reached, repeat. It took me 4 changes to drop all the way.
-Target: controversy here. Some state 1.010 (as Andrew is targeting) and nothing lower. Some state 1.008 is only measure that will kill Ich, although one point lower could kill fish. I am at about 1.009. I don't know what to say here. I've seen some accounts of full tank hypo runs at 1.008-1.010 where it is reported that white spots returned immediately upon return to normal salinity, even when all the "rules" were followed (run for ~8 weeks, use ATO/refractometer, raise salinity slow). So there is no magical/precise known number here, in my opinion.
STEP 2. MONITOR
-Watch everything, constantly.
-Fully recharge your backup water supply, adjusted to final salinity. Always have this ready to go.
-Fish - they adjust. Freak out at first, then rest/hide and don't eat much, then they're fine. Personally I would not worry and ever slow down the drop, since in an emergency treatment you are RACING to weaken the pathogen faster than the fish. If the fish dies during the SG drop, probably safe to conclude that it died moreso from parasite (or that it would have died anyway).
-Tank parms - measured 2-3 times daily. Watch close for re-cycle (ammonia spike = you killed something in the rock that didn't tolerate, nitrate spike = sponge slow death (from what I've researched)). Some accounts of total hypo failure (ie, all fish died in treatment), so herein is the risk you are taking. I think I was on the failure path, hopefully I've staved it off. My theory is that organisms in some peoples' live rock will die so bad that the tank sh!ts the bed, whereas others don't (maybe some kinds of sponges? worms? etc, who knows).
-Emergency treatment - Can only do the best you can do here. Immediately after I measured Ammonia spike (for me - to .25ppm), I immediately added bacterial supplements then let it ride for ~36 hours in the hope that the cycle would start catching up. After that, though, I was nervous about fish dying, and decided it was time for emergency handling. So I dosed with Prime and re-started massive water change regimen (I didn't wait too long).
-pH adjustment - This will be a must, with buffering agent. However, during Ammonia emergency: DO NOT raise pH (including in water change). This will multiply the suspended toxic ammonia in your tank. I followed advice to dose with Prime 24 hours before water change in the hope that most toxic ammonia will be reduced to nontoxic before a water change. I think I almost killed the puffer when I made a mistake on my first water change regarding Ammonia/pH.
FEEDING etc
Careful on overfeeding, as marine nitrification is difficult (as I understand) at reduced salinity (including, some speculate that the cycling occurs because you are replacing marine with freshwater bacteria, so it takes time for the bacterial filter to catch up). You will kill off algae in your tank.
STOCKING
-My suggestion is you try to get fish, from known good sources that are hopefully quarantined, and add them into tank before you start your final 4 weeks. This way, all fish get the same 4 week treatment. However, I would not add entire list all in one day. I would space it out over a few weeks, if possible.
-I did dump almost the whole stocking list in pretty quick. This was risky for me, because I had such a cast of punks. I think there has been high stress in the tank with all the action plus the aggressive nature of my fish.
Now if Andrew posts, his account will make mine look like the overhyped drama of the year...LOL...his was pretty uneventful on the cycling/emergency front...
Will edit this post if I missed anything...
Basically followed the guidance of some of the posters on Hypo (especially Freedom and Andrew per above), and put a plan together.
PREP:
-Water change capacity - I already had 40% WC ability (total volume 200G). No formula here, just pointing out how big my volume was (bigger the better)
-Refractomer - ordered one. More important to have on hand for your last water change (to hone in on target SG), and to maintain. You can start dropping salinity without one.
-ATO - had already installed (JBJ ATO). Ditto to above.
-Emergency ammonia reducers - Bacterial supplements (Dr. Tim's One and ONly, Aquafin), Seachem Prime
-Buffer with Seachem product (forgot name)
STEP 1: DROP SALINITY
-WC with RO/DI freshwater, matched for temperature and pH.
-Can find all kinds of suggestions on how fast is too fast, here and on the net. Basically I dropped it as fast as possible, hoping that I would save my porc puffer who had already started the death march. Fast as possible for me was: mix RO to full storage capacity, massive WC, wait again (~40 hrs) to full capacity reached, repeat. It took me 4 changes to drop all the way.
-Target: controversy here. Some state 1.010 (as Andrew is targeting) and nothing lower. Some state 1.008 is only measure that will kill Ich, although one point lower could kill fish. I am at about 1.009. I don't know what to say here. I've seen some accounts of full tank hypo runs at 1.008-1.010 where it is reported that white spots returned immediately upon return to normal salinity, even when all the "rules" were followed (run for ~8 weeks, use ATO/refractometer, raise salinity slow). So there is no magical/precise known number here, in my opinion.
STEP 2. MONITOR
-Watch everything, constantly.
-Fully recharge your backup water supply, adjusted to final salinity. Always have this ready to go.
-Fish - they adjust. Freak out at first, then rest/hide and don't eat much, then they're fine. Personally I would not worry and ever slow down the drop, since in an emergency treatment you are RACING to weaken the pathogen faster than the fish. If the fish dies during the SG drop, probably safe to conclude that it died moreso from parasite (or that it would have died anyway).
-Tank parms - measured 2-3 times daily. Watch close for re-cycle (ammonia spike = you killed something in the rock that didn't tolerate, nitrate spike = sponge slow death (from what I've researched)). Some accounts of total hypo failure (ie, all fish died in treatment), so herein is the risk you are taking. I think I was on the failure path, hopefully I've staved it off. My theory is that organisms in some peoples' live rock will die so bad that the tank sh!ts the bed, whereas others don't (maybe some kinds of sponges? worms? etc, who knows).
-Emergency treatment - Can only do the best you can do here. Immediately after I measured Ammonia spike (for me - to .25ppm), I immediately added bacterial supplements then let it ride for ~36 hours in the hope that the cycle would start catching up. After that, though, I was nervous about fish dying, and decided it was time for emergency handling. So I dosed with Prime and re-started massive water change regimen (I didn't wait too long).
-pH adjustment - This will be a must, with buffering agent. However, during Ammonia emergency: DO NOT raise pH (including in water change). This will multiply the suspended toxic ammonia in your tank. I followed advice to dose with Prime 24 hours before water change in the hope that most toxic ammonia will be reduced to nontoxic before a water change. I think I almost killed the puffer when I made a mistake on my first water change regarding Ammonia/pH.
FEEDING etc
Careful on overfeeding, as marine nitrification is difficult (as I understand) at reduced salinity (including, some speculate that the cycling occurs because you are replacing marine with freshwater bacteria, so it takes time for the bacterial filter to catch up). You will kill off algae in your tank.
STOCKING
-My suggestion is you try to get fish, from known good sources that are hopefully quarantined, and add them into tank before you start your final 4 weeks. This way, all fish get the same 4 week treatment. However, I would not add entire list all in one day. I would space it out over a few weeks, if possible.
-I did dump almost the whole stocking list in pretty quick. This was risky for me, because I had such a cast of punks. I think there has been high stress in the tank with all the action plus the aggressive nature of my fish.
Now if Andrew posts, his account will make mine look like the overhyped drama of the year...LOL...his was pretty uneventful on the cycling/emergency front...
Will edit this post if I missed anything...
So here is my experience. I think there are a few key points to add for all to ponder. 1. My tank was new when ich struck. It had cycled but the lr was not mature. By that I mean it did not have years of growth on it. I think, but I have no proof, that is why dave might have seen ammonia spikes as his tank was more established. 2. I kept all my lr and ls in the main dt. I moved all my corals and inverts into my refugium where they have lived for the past 40 days. It is shut off from the main dt so they are completely separate systems at the moment. There are no fish in my refugium nor have there been any for the past 40 days so theoretically the ich should have starved off in refugium by now. Regardless the refugium will be isolated for a full 60 days. My dt is currently a fowlr with hypo at 1.009
a) dropping my salinity-I did this over 4 days. I would simply drain the tank 50 or so gallons(tank is 280 plus another 100 in the sump), hook up my rodi and let it run until it was full again. This way it slowly dropped the salinity over a period of time and had no adverse effect on my fish. I would also like to point out I never had any major spikes. PH is running a little higher around 8.1-8.3 but since it is fish only I am not worried. Ammonia is currently 0 and nitrate 1ppm. It has been like this for 40 days now.
b) Ich pretty much cleared up after the first week. I saw a couple spots on my blue hippo yesterday, 38 days out, but I think it might have been debris as there is absolutely nothing today. I have not seen any other signs of ich on any inhabitants up to this point. I have a hydrometer so I am about as certain as you can be it is at 1.009. I also run a 90w uv sterilizer.
c) wet skimming- My skimmer doesnt seem to work as well at hypo so I have been wet skimming. Works great and stills pulls a lot of gunk. I have also noticed a weird green algae that grows on all the rock. It almost glows, however the fish just nip at it so it seems harmless.
d) going to go another 4 weeks probably at hypo and then slowly raise the salinity. I have added several inhabitants since the hypo and they have done great. In fact I just dropped them in and they were fine. Didn't have to do an extra long acclimation or anything.
e) lastly I maintain my dt like a normal tank. ligths on a regular cycle, feed my fish, pumps, circulation, temp all the same. However it will be nice once I raise my dt to 1.025 as I have my refugium full of lr and ls and I simply have to open a valve to reconnect the 2. It is a 125g refugium so I imagine I will have a very short cycle if any. Time will tell.
a) dropping my salinity-I did this over 4 days. I would simply drain the tank 50 or so gallons(tank is 280 plus another 100 in the sump), hook up my rodi and let it run until it was full again. This way it slowly dropped the salinity over a period of time and had no adverse effect on my fish. I would also like to point out I never had any major spikes. PH is running a little higher around 8.1-8.3 but since it is fish only I am not worried. Ammonia is currently 0 and nitrate 1ppm. It has been like this for 40 days now.
b) Ich pretty much cleared up after the first week. I saw a couple spots on my blue hippo yesterday, 38 days out, but I think it might have been debris as there is absolutely nothing today. I have not seen any other signs of ich on any inhabitants up to this point. I have a hydrometer so I am about as certain as you can be it is at 1.009. I also run a 90w uv sterilizer.
c) wet skimming- My skimmer doesnt seem to work as well at hypo so I have been wet skimming. Works great and stills pulls a lot of gunk. I have also noticed a weird green algae that grows on all the rock. It almost glows, however the fish just nip at it so it seems harmless.
d) going to go another 4 weeks probably at hypo and then slowly raise the salinity. I have added several inhabitants since the hypo and they have done great. In fact I just dropped them in and they were fine. Didn't have to do an extra long acclimation or anything.
e) lastly I maintain my dt like a normal tank. ligths on a regular cycle, feed my fish, pumps, circulation, temp all the same. However it will be nice once I raise my dt to 1.025 as I have my refugium full of lr and ls and I simply have to open a valve to reconnect the 2. It is a 125g refugium so I imagine I will have a very short cycle if any. Time will tell.