Help - Hyposalinity in a fish only display tank?
- Thread starter daverf
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Andrew had a great summary as well and completed a few facts about how I am also running (like I said, I pretty much followed his lead). Except, my tank is pretty new also (~6 months running).
All filtration I have running in my system (nothing off line): Skimmer (wet), carbon, Seachem Purigen (thought it couldn't hurt to run in my tank), about 35# / 6" DSB in fuge, Algae scrubber. Also, I had a lot of bio media spread out in my tanks (ceramic fluval rings mostly) - I threw all active biomedia into my sump when my ammonia spiked.
So moral of the story is, I would not pull anything offline except macroalgae. THAT assumes you are doing a display tank hypo treatment (in - fish, rock, sand...out-all inverts), which is what Andrew and I are doing.
If you're pulling rock/sand out of tank, hm. I would probably put as much active biomedia as you can in your tank, pull fuge offline, and just do an old fashion hypo treatment (no inverts, rock, sand). Proven and way easier to control. You will just need to make sure there is a full fallow period with rock/sand/inverts, however, as you will not be treating the Ich that survives here and must allow them to cycle through without hosts and die completely (I believe you raise temperature for fallow tank treatment).
All filtration I have running in my system (nothing off line): Skimmer (wet), carbon, Seachem Purigen (thought it couldn't hurt to run in my tank), about 35# / 6" DSB in fuge, Algae scrubber. Also, I had a lot of bio media spread out in my tanks (ceramic fluval rings mostly) - I threw all active biomedia into my sump when my ammonia spiked.
So moral of the story is, I would not pull anything offline except macroalgae. THAT assumes you are doing a display tank hypo treatment (in - fish, rock, sand...out-all inverts), which is what Andrew and I are doing.
If you're pulling rock/sand out of tank, hm. I would probably put as much active biomedia as you can in your tank, pull fuge offline, and just do an old fashion hypo treatment (no inverts, rock, sand). Proven and way easier to control. You will just need to make sure there is a full fallow period with rock/sand/inverts, however, as you will not be treating the Ich that survives here and must allow them to cycle through without hosts and die completely (I believe you raise temperature for fallow tank treatment).
Update for me...
Bio cycle almost complete, I see no Ammonia, Trace Nitrites. Still run high nitrates, I attribute both to the live rock die off and heavy feeding that I do for my beasties. So moral of the story for my run, hypo impact was a two week re-cycle to a lesser degree.
Odor is mostly gone, I realized much of it was coming from the skimmer cup. Never smelled such bad skimmate, and while I wet skim slightly the cup is filling up like crazy. Same causes I think, live rock die off and heavy feeding.
I have had a constant haze in the tank. I thought it could be die off, but now I'm wondering if this is an issue with trying to keep the pH steady (and possibly the Seachem buffer product I use?). In other words, I think there may be calcium precipitate in the water column. Don't know all the chemistry here, but I have noticed huge precipitation issues when mixing salt if I - add salt to buffered freshwater. I wonder if this could be part of my issue. Fish don't seem to care much, so I'll let be.
I did add my final fish, more/less straight in after an extended acclimation. Big annularis angel. He showed zero distress (actually, probably less distress than the others which were added after I gave them a one day pitstop at half-hypo tank).
Bio cycle almost complete, I see no Ammonia, Trace Nitrites. Still run high nitrates, I attribute both to the live rock die off and heavy feeding that I do for my beasties. So moral of the story for my run, hypo impact was a two week re-cycle to a lesser degree.
Odor is mostly gone, I realized much of it was coming from the skimmer cup. Never smelled such bad skimmate, and while I wet skim slightly the cup is filling up like crazy. Same causes I think, live rock die off and heavy feeding.
I have had a constant haze in the tank. I thought it could be die off, but now I'm wondering if this is an issue with trying to keep the pH steady (and possibly the Seachem buffer product I use?). In other words, I think there may be calcium precipitate in the water column. Don't know all the chemistry here, but I have noticed huge precipitation issues when mixing salt if I - add salt to buffered freshwater. I wonder if this could be part of my issue. Fish don't seem to care much, so I'll let be.
I did add my final fish, more/less straight in after an extended acclimation. Big annularis angel. He showed zero distress (actually, probably less distress than the others which were added after I gave them a one day pitstop at half-hypo tank).
I officially pulled out of hypo, but have been running tank at a very slow raise (now, somewhere around 1.012). I noticed some white clumps (not spots) appear on my fish, and compared them to pics I took of my puffer when I first thought I had Ich. I decided I may not have Ich after all, but something else possibly (such as a fluke). I would have kept hypo going, but the fish seemed to be suffering and there were too many variables to decide what it could be (aggressive tankmates, water quality issues that were continuing, this other pathogen, the stress of hypo, or possibly everything in combination).
My water quality is much improved, I got the aggressors out, and the fish are now all doing fantastic. I may try a true hypo run in the future if I see any true Ich, but for now have exited.
I guess the moral of the story from my FOWLR display hypo run is that it can be risky, and needs very careful observation done throughout its use. Impact on live rock and biological filter is unpredictable, so it is good to be prepared for massive water changes (and also for raising SG early). It also can be difficult to diagnose what other factors (outside of Ich and hypo effects) can be causing environmental stress to fish while running FOWLR display hypo. I'm glad that I did it, because it helped rule out a present infestation of Ich and I think that any future Ich issue could be easily managed in my tank by restarting hypo treatment.
I will add a few final fish to the tank and keep it as a ready tool to use if I see any parasite problems come up after they are added, but otherwise hope it doesn't need to be run again in the future...knock on wood...
My water quality is much improved, I got the aggressors out, and the fish are now all doing fantastic. I may try a true hypo run in the future if I see any true Ich, but for now have exited.
I guess the moral of the story from my FOWLR display hypo run is that it can be risky, and needs very careful observation done throughout its use. Impact on live rock and biological filter is unpredictable, so it is good to be prepared for massive water changes (and also for raising SG early). It also can be difficult to diagnose what other factors (outside of Ich and hypo effects) can be causing environmental stress to fish while running FOWLR display hypo. I'm glad that I did it, because it helped rule out a present infestation of Ich and I think that any future Ich issue could be easily managed in my tank by restarting hypo treatment.
I will add a few final fish to the tank and keep it as a ready tool to use if I see any parasite problems come up after they are added, but otherwise hope it doesn't need to be run again in the future...knock on wood...
I may be going back to hypo. I see Ich, just a few spots. I'm guessing that the fish could drop the spots off as the tank environment favors them vs the parasites, but I want to try eradication.
I ran Hypo for 3 weeks at 1.009, then exited and am now at 1.014. I did not see spots for 2.5 of those weeks. I exited because water quality was poor, fish seemed to be suffering (volitans lateral line deteriorating), and I suspected a misdiagnosis of Ich. Over the last few weeks, I have ruled out several other possible causes and fish health has otherwise dramatically improved. I thought it could be flukes/worms, but freshwater dips on the volitans and puffer showed none. Having seen these few spots, believe this may be Ich. I'll continue to observe, and possibly get a scrape/'scope positive ID before the next salinity change so I can be more confident on Ich or no Ich.
If I restart fully hypo, impact of planning to keep some of the inhabitants at a 1.014 or lower salinity for up to 3-4 months is not fully known. There are reports of hypo running for a year or longer with no impact, so I'm hoping for a positive outcome.
Andrew, If I recall where you are in the process, you finished 8 weeks on Jan 1? Are you out? If so, do you see any Ich? And how is your system otherwise responding?
I ran Hypo for 3 weeks at 1.009, then exited and am now at 1.014. I did not see spots for 2.5 of those weeks. I exited because water quality was poor, fish seemed to be suffering (volitans lateral line deteriorating), and I suspected a misdiagnosis of Ich. Over the last few weeks, I have ruled out several other possible causes and fish health has otherwise dramatically improved. I thought it could be flukes/worms, but freshwater dips on the volitans and puffer showed none. Having seen these few spots, believe this may be Ich. I'll continue to observe, and possibly get a scrape/'scope positive ID before the next salinity change so I can be more confident on Ich or no Ich.
If I restart fully hypo, impact of planning to keep some of the inhabitants at a 1.014 or lower salinity for up to 3-4 months is not fully known. There are reports of hypo running for a year or longer with no impact, so I'm hoping for a positive outcome.
Andrew, If I recall where you are in the process, you finished 8 weeks on Jan 1? Are you out? If so, do you see any Ich? And how is your system otherwise responding?
As for my tank, I'm back to full hyposalinity at about 1.009. I may raise a bit, I see a lot of lethargy. Andrew or Freedom or anyone else, did you see this in the fish?
This was more to get a preventive run going. I didn't see any major problems, but spots here and there with the above-normal tank stress (fish put in and pulled out due to aggression or eating issues).
This was more to get a preventive run going. I didn't see any major problems, but spots here and there with the above-normal tank stress (fish put in and pulled out due to aggression or eating issues).
If it was lympho, seems you may have seen it during hypo treatment. Lympho is usually not transmitted or deadly (unless a growth covers the mouth, which then needs to be cut away), just flares up/disappears due to stress/environmental and there is no confirmed cure. So maybe you should watch for a while and see if there is any progression that will help you figure out what it is? Maybe the tang will shake whatever it is on its own?
Lympho tens to be clumps (sometimes slightly translucent) hanging off the fringes of fins or skin. Fish doesn't really try to flash them off or scratch gills / breathe heavy. Ich can start as a milky cloud that usually turns into a distinct white spot (if on a fin, usually between the bones on the webbing, but not hanging off). Hard to distinguish but there are differences. Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you already know by now. Hopefully it is not Ich. Hang in there.
As for my hypo run, I lost my big maroon clown the other day, 100% fine the day before and died with no external signs of disease. I'm not willing to attribute it to hypo, although that could be causative. Over the last week, I've moved rocks a lot (to pull a big mean fish), done a heavy water change, started dosing very small amount of lanthanum, increased the salinity slightly, and also let the pH get away from me (d'oh, got way too low). Could be some combination of these as stressors, or who knows - could be congenital or death by Volitans impaling. Other fish seem fine.
Lympho tens to be clumps (sometimes slightly translucent) hanging off the fringes of fins or skin. Fish doesn't really try to flash them off or scratch gills / breathe heavy. Ich can start as a milky cloud that usually turns into a distinct white spot (if on a fin, usually between the bones on the webbing, but not hanging off). Hard to distinguish but there are differences. Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you already know by now. Hopefully it is not Ich. Hang in there.
As for my hypo run, I lost my big maroon clown the other day, 100% fine the day before and died with no external signs of disease. I'm not willing to attribute it to hypo, although that could be causative. Over the last week, I've moved rocks a lot (to pull a big mean fish), done a heavy water change, started dosing very small amount of lanthanum, increased the salinity slightly, and also let the pH get away from me (d'oh, got way too low). Could be some combination of these as stressors, or who knows - could be congenital or death by Volitans impaling. Other fish seem fine.