LEDs, discussion.

[chrislorentz]

http://www.livingreefs.com/acclimating-corals-new-lights-t38281.html
http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/led-lighting-specific/62408-acclimating-corals-leds-help.html
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f190/acclimating-your-corals-to-led-lights-178977.html
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?118498-New-LED-lights...-coral-acclimation
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2091053
http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/383190/going-from-pcs-to-leds-should-i-acclimate-the-coral
http://support.aquaillumination.com/entries/458462-acclimation-of-corals

 

[dv3]

what the heck is that chris ...are you spamming ...lol

 

[chrislorentz]

lol no Dbarnes stated he did not know he needed to acclimate coral to LED so I give him a few examples.

 

[bsharpe]

I have yet to see a system established under LED that looks jaw dropping.
I have seen many systems that were established under halide or T5, then switched to LED with some very mixed results.
Many/most of the tanks look phenomenal at first, and some corals seem to be unaffected long term. Much of this seems to depend on the light acclimation precautions taken.
However...I have seen many corals, sometimes entire systems that just go downhill after the switch to LED, and at a much higher rate than a switch to/from any other lighting type.
I have seen MANY cases of clams, birdnests, some acros and montis just not doing well under LED, at all. (perhaps singular wavelength isn't enough?)
Thoughts? Experiences? What have you killed with LED? What looks better than ever?

I was told by the coral expert at the Denver Aquarium that the consensus is that corals do not do that well under LED's and lose color in time.

 

[subpotentjoe]

I was told by the coral expert at the Denver Aquarium that the consensus is that corals do not do that well under LED's and lose color in time.

Its just new. LED has not been perfected yet but corals can be grown under it pretty easily. My opinion is that the LEDs are alot stronger than people think. There is not any PAR meter that I know of that will accurately measure the Blue LEDs. Apogee has stated that there meter under estimates Blue light. I believe that two things are going on:
The bluer LED setups are putting out more PAR than we know and a wider array of colors may be necessary. I have an apogee mq200 and it is below 100 par inches from my fixtures with just the blues on. When I turn the whites on (3 blues to 1 white) the PAR is still low but the tank is brightly lit. My lps corals are doing awesome 30 inches away with no optics. All my sps near the middle and top RTN'd rapidly when I switched to LED. I was running optics and driving them at the same PAR numbers as the T5's I had before. Come to find out it was waaayyy too much light.

 

[CRW Reef]

Ok so... If any of you ever meet my wife, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not tell her about these such things I myself am happier not knowing lol

 

[djkms]

It sure is easy to place blame, especially on new technology. Facts are I have personally grown SPS under LEDs' exclusively. The coloring issue for me has been nutrient/alk control with SPS with my system, I do not blame the lighting at all. I have colored up and grown acropora's, montipora's, LPS, Zoas, you name it.

Because LED's are new its far to easy for hobbyists to say, wow my acropora looks like crap, must be the lights. Facts are though SPS are very very sensitive to even the littlest changes in a system. A accidental bump against a branch while cleaning can tick it off, brown it out for months while you struggle to bring it back. If you are not consistently monitoring your alkalinity, nitrate, phosphate, salinity, etc then how do you KNOW its the lights? You could have had a nutrient spike that took care of itself and never known if you only test once a month for example. That little spike between tests very well could be the reason your coral looks like doodoo.

I see a number of people who don't even own a kit or test for phosphate. This is probably the 2nd most important test when keeping SPS aside from Alkalinity.

At the end of the day keeping coral is not easy. They have very specific care requirements and when we slack as reefkeepers it shows in our tank. Also, any changes we make to the living conditions will affect the inhabitants. Switching from t5's to LEDs is probably just as risky switching from LED's to metal halides.

I do agree that the spectrum with B/rB/W setups is lacking, but with the advancement of LED's comes the advancement of their application and now we are seeing fixtures which include a wider array of color and spectrum.

 

[Mini T]

Has anyone noticed that the lighting histogram for coral growth has an extreme spike in the blue led range. Not a gradual increase, but a huge spike?

 

[subpotentjoe]

It sure is easy to place blame, especially on new technology. Facts are I have personally grown SPS under LEDs' exclusively. The coloring issue for me has been nutrient/alk control with SPS with my system, I do not blame the lighting at all. I have colored up and grown acropora's, montipora's, LPS, Zoas, you name it.

Because LED's are new its far to easy for hobbyists to say, wow my acropora looks like crap, must be the lights. Facts are though SPS are very very sensitive to even the littlest changes in a system. A accidental bump against a branch while cleaning can tick it off, brown it out for months while you struggle to bring it back. If you are not consistently monitoring your alkalinity, nitrate, phosphate, salinity, etc then how do you KNOW its the lights? You could have had a nutrient spike that took care of itself and never known if you only test once a month for example. That little spike between tests very well could be the reason your coral looks like doodoo.

I see a number of people who don't even own a kit or test for phosphate. This is probably the 2nd most important test when keeping SPS aside from Alkalinity.

At the end of the day keeping coral is not easy. They have very specific care requirements and when we slack as reefkeepers it shows in our tank. Also, any changes we make to the living conditions will affect the inhabitants. Switching from t5's to LEDs is probably just as risky switching from LED's to metal halides.

I do agree that the spectrum with B/rB/W setups is lacking, but with the advancement of LED's comes the advancement of their application and now we are seeing fixtures which include a wider array of color and spectrum.

Well Said. You can include: carbon, salt mix, GFO, additives. Haha I never hear "these test kits faded/killed my coral" Back on track though I did... however... bleach all of my sps with LEDs being too strong... or Im pretty sure I did. Or I could blame test kits...

 

[Zooid]

I did... however... bleach all of my sps with LEDs being too strong...

+1
I lost huge colonies because I acclimated wrong

 

[subpotentjoe]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2032737&page=2

A lot of speculation but an interesting thread

 

[Crit21]

In my 150 I had a hodgepodge of blue, royal blue and cool whites. Some were 3W, and some were the 5mm LEDs. My corals LOVED them. Once the corals acclimated, I saw massive growth in a lot of SPS, and pigmentation and fluorescence like I never saw under halides or VHOs.

I read an interview with Sanjay. He hit it on the head when he said a photon is a photon. It doesn't matter what kind of bulb it comes from. He's also said many times that if you have the intensity to generate a PAR value of "100 at the bottom of the tank will provide enough of a light gradient to satisfy a wide range of corals."

With the exception of very few commercial LED fixtures, most that Sanjay tested fall far short of that target. One standout was the Orphek, which was using enough LEDs to hit the magic 100 PAR mark at a depth of 36". That equated to 120 watts of LEDs for a 24" x 36" footprint, or 20 watts of LED per square foot of tank bottom. Of course, the right lenses probably help.

As far as pigmentation, I'm sure the highly monochromatic, narrow wavelength distribution characteristics of the colored LEDs make a big difference compared to the relatively broad spectrum of halides. That's why I think it's important that when you use blue LEDs that you include both blue, royal blue, and maybe even violet LEDs along with the whites, so that you cover a wider range of wavelengths.

 

[deadrock]

Ok so i ordered my LEDs today, overall from what i read and saw at local fish stores alot of individual were having good luck with either DIY or the chienese white/blues. Sense i dont have time to DIY nor do i know enough about them to do it i just oreder the TaoTonics 120watt 45white/40blue 3wattbulbs setup (x2). My plan is to build a custom alum housing to fit them in and surround them with my T5s in order to get a little growth. However first i am going to do a little expirement and light half my tank with LED and the other half with my current MH, i have a fairly diverse mix of diffrent corals including sps, and lps as well as plenty of softies. Im going to give it two weeks and if i see a diffrence in some corals i will then switch them and see if the same thing happens to the oposing side. If i see a huge decline in the corals overall health then i will have really nice LEDs on MASC for a reallycheap price :0. Maybe this little expirement will help answer a few questions IE; are the perticular corals that will do better either under MH or Leds? also weather or not the corals will do any better with T5 support?

I am going to be doing something very simalay to this soon. A 150w hqi on one side of a 75g a 50w led on the other. So ill have to share my results also

 

[subpotentjoe]

In my 150 I had a hodgepodge of blue, royal blue and cool whites. Some were 3W, and some were the 5mm LEDs. My corals LOVED them. Once the corals acclimated, I saw massive growth in a lot of SPS, and pigmentation and fluorescence like I never saw under halides or VHOs.

I read an interview with Sanjay. He hit it on the head when he said a photon is a photon. It doesn't matter what kind of bulb it comes from. He's also said many times that if you have the intensity to generate a PAR value of "100 at the bottom of the tank will provide enough of a light gradient to satisfy a wide range of corals."

With the exception of very few commercial LED fixtures, most that Sanjay tested fall far short of that target. One standout was the Orphek, which was using enough LEDs to hit the magic 100 PAR mark at a depth of 36". That equated to 120 watts of LEDs for a 24" x 36" footprint, or 20 watts of LED per square foot of tank bottom. Of course, the right lenses probably help.

As far as pigmentation, I'm sure the highly monochromatic, narrow wavelength distribution characteristics of the colored LEDs make a big difference compared to the relatively broad spectrum of halides. That's why I think it's important that when you use blue LEDs that you include both blue, royal blue, and maybe even violet LEDs along with the whites, so that you cover a wider range of wavelengths.

Im not discounting Sanjay's report but Apogee themselves say that their sensor under estimates the Blue LEDs by as much as 50% and that they are wrking on a different sensor that is more suited to LEDs. Until that happens any PAR readings on LED fixtures (unless all of the LEDs are White) are incorrect imo. Everything we think we know about # of LEDs necessary, PAR values and optics may be a long way off. It will be interesting to see if Apogee can come with a sensor that is specially designed for LEDs and if they do how much it will change the LED landscape. More colors are also going to be a huge part of the future of LED as a reef light source.

 

[that0neguy1126]

[attachment=60929:name]
Yes the Apogee sensor used in their quantum meters is off. Fortunantly they know how far off it is, so it is very easy to understand your true PAR using LEDs.
Most of our blue LEDs are around 470nm wavelength. According to Apogee they underestimate that wavelength at .9 instead of 1.0(a perfect sensor would rate all wavelengths at 1.0, technology is not there unless you spend $4k). So even when you take a PAR reading off of a MH or T5 light, it is not exact. The theory is the over estimated PAR reading in the 550-650nm range cancels out the underrated 400-500nm range.

So if I take a measurement of 180 under only my blue lights. The true PAR is really 198.

So saying the Apogee readings are completely false is a little bit of an overstatement. It is not off by that much are the wavelengths we are measuring, and if you understand why its off, its very easy to get the right reading.

Also, the Spectrum of a White LED is not that far off from a MH bulb. Look at the spectrum graph from 2 White LED's below and compare to a 20k MH. Yes, Specific color LED's are very narrow band wavelength's. But the White's are totally different technology. Most of them are Blue LED's with a phosphorous around the LED that emits a white light when energized from blue light. The photon's produced from the phosphorous are the same as any other white light source.

[attachment=60930:name]
[attachment=60931:name]

 

[subpotentjoe]

View attachment 5181

So saying the Apogee readings are completely false is a little bit of an overstatement. It is not off by that much are the wavelengths we are measuring, and if you understand why its off, its very easy to get the right reading.

View attachment 5182
View attachment 5183

Not what I Said. I said that PAR readings IMO are incorrect until Apogee or someone else gives a sensor that is more suited for reading LEDs. I also said that the PAR we think we are getting MAY BE way off. Until we have a sensor that we know is accurate and specifically designed to give us a PAR reading on LEDs. My opinions and thoughts are from experience with my Apogee MQ-200, My ATI T5 fixture, a 250w MH fixture, My DIY LEDs, my over 20 colonies of bleached sps and my now collection of thriving zoas, palys, acans, chalice, euphylia on the sand bed of a 30 inch deep tank with 3 to 1 Blue to white 3 watt LEDs driven at about 80% of their 700ma max. By those calculations my sand bed is getting a PAR of about 70 and 300 at the water surface. I never want to make blanket statements regarding the unknown (IMO again) and I always try to specify that what I say are my opinions and thoughts. Also this is the first tiome I have seen the data you present. I will research this more and if im wrong I will stand corrected. What I read is that Blue LEDs are understated by as much as 50% on the Apogee MQ200 and that Apogee was working on a sensor that will be more suited to LEDs. I will find this information and post the link later when I get home from work. A formula that tells exactly how understated the Royal Blue LEDs are is new to me. I THINK that when a company like Apogee does build the MQ-200 LED model (speculation) we will learn alot we didnt know before. If people never question what we think we know there would be lots of things never discovered. I still think that Blue LEDs put out more PAR than we currently think and I believe it will be proven in the future. My statement is based on experience with my own tank and LEDs and the vast amount of other reports and experiences that I have read but not anything factual that I can prove. But until we have a PAR sensor that reads LEDs more accurately (I understand that MH and T5 readings are not perfect either but still better than LED) I believe there is no proof either way just experience. Not attacking you this is just a healthy debate.

 

[that0neguy1126]

The Quantum meter is accurate though. Photons are photons are photons regardless. The part that is off is the calculation. LED or MH has nothing to do with it. If you had a MH that produced only 480nm wavelength light you would have the same problem. Apogee knows exactly how much each specific wavelength is off when measured with the Quantum meter. The 420nm wavelength is 50% underrated by the apogee meter. That being said, it is very easy to know exactly what your par is. If it measures 80 (and you are using 420nm wavelength LEDs) then the real reading is 160.

I think because we know exactly what wavelength our LED's produce, and you know exactly how much the Apogee sensor is off on that wavelength, if you take the time, you can actually get a better PAR reading from the apogee meter on LED's than you can on MH's or T5's.

I agree with you on the strength of them. My tank is lighted by LEDs. Right now the blue's are at 45% and the whites at 20%. I have great coloration and growth on all of them (except this dang Alien Eye chalice).

and yes, don't take my posts personal. Just trying to explain what the Quantum meter is actually doing and what the limitations are.

 

[subpotentjoe]

How can you get an accurate reading with the Whites and Blues on at the same time? Measuring the Whites and Blues independantly, compensating the Blue then add them together? From what I understand White LEDs read pretty well with an MQ200 and the Blues are understated because the sensor leans more toward the Red spectrum and doesnt measure the Blue very well. If it is true that Apogee is designing a replacement sensor better suited for LED and especially Blue LED I will be in line to get one. Until then we can agree to disagree. The only information I have seen from Apogee regarding the underestimation of LEDs is that it could be as much as 50% on the Bluer spectrum. Not an exact percent. Again we need a sensor that measures the light together at the same time something close to 85-90% accurate to really know whats going on. What if I have LEDs that are 403, 420, 440, 460 and 480 regular Blue? Are all of these Blue spectrums underrated by 50%? 35%? I actually am a proponent of mixing different brands of 3w LEDs because they can vary from 440-465 and be called "Royal Blue". The CREE may be 445 depending on the bin, the Chinese maybe 460 and Phillips may be 455 or they could be all mixed up Who knows with just a par meter? The UV and regular Blue have similar xxxnm-xxxnm ratings from the manufacturer. When we start adding all of these colored LEDs to our builds (LED future imo) a whole new can of worms opens. Can an apogee read UV? How much is it off? Does it overestimate Red? Green? Cyan? 30%? 50%? Speaking of spectrum would you/have you considered other colors in your build? I have RB CW and UV right now but im thinking of adding some Blue, a couple Reds and maybe a Cyan or two. I also want to add multiple brands of LED in RB and CW. I think this will cover a broader spectrum.

 

[that0neguy1126]

How can you get an accurate reading with the Whites and Blues on at the same time? Measuring the Whites and Blues independantly, compensating the Blue then add them together?

Yep.

The only information I have seen from Apogee regarding the underestimation of LEDs is that it could be as much as 50% on the Bluer spectrum. Not an exact percent. Again we need a sensor that measures the light together at the same time something close to 85-90% accurate to really know whats going on.

The 1st graph I posted is directly from Apogee and puts exact % by wavelength.

What if I have LEDs that are 403, 420, 440, 460 and 480 regular Blue?

Not possible. the way LED's work a specific wavelength is created based on the 2 types of metals in the die.

Can an apogee read UV? How much is it off? Does it overestimate Red? Green? Cyan? 30%? 50%?

Check the 1st graph i posted.

Speaking of spectrum would you/have you considered other colors in your build? I have RB CW and UV right now but im thinking of adding some Blue, a couple Reds and maybe a Cyan or two. I also want to add multiple brands of LED in RB and CW. I think this will cover a broader spectrum.

I am actually considering getting another driver (60 LEDs) a adding some of the other colors into my build.

 

[tlsrcs]

I am actually considering getting another driver (60 LEDs) a adding some of the other colors into my build.

What driver do you use to power 60 LEDS??