Need your input for the coming year....

[SynDen]

For reefing talks, sounds like JDA is game and I wonder about someone from Underwater Wonders (Seth, Garret, Cole) or Cris Capp. Finding a good place to do it might be the tricky part - maybe a community events center.

That's strange background on the NOCO reef club thing. From the website, seems they are a bit more focused on making money... through memberships and shop deals, etc. Maybe we can find some common ground and merge the clubs down the road, if NOCO reef club sticks around.

Ya all of those would good ppl for the reef talk, along with others like @rmougey, Salem and a few others. Event center would not be possible for that as that would cost a ton of money, so would be somewhere we can do for free like the school, any of the local shops, or someone's house. But certainly worth consideration and we will look and see if we can put 1 on the calendar for this year to see how it goes.

As for NOCO, you hit the nail on the head, and that is part of the major point of contention between us. They are very focused on the corporate side of the reefing community, and expecting the hobbyist to pay the money to support them. Where as, MASC has been, and will always be about supporting the hobbyists. While we do have sponsors who support us, and we support them in turn, our focus will always be on the hobbyists and supporting them in any way possible.

 

[jda123]

I have given short talks and speeches on a step ladder in a backyard - mostly about recruiting, leadership/management and a few other things, but the message got across.

I did not even know what NOCO reef club was a thing until this thread. They must be really killing it...

 

[SteveT]

Im seeing a lot of flat out untruthful information in this thread, so I think it’s best to address everything openly for anyone who still visits this forum—which, unfortunately, does not seem to be many these days. In fact, the decline in community activity is what started this entire situation in the first place.

I stepped away from the saltwater hobby for a few years after my daughter was born. When I returned, I was surprised to find that the community I had once been a part of—one that regularly hosted meetings, frag swaps, and DBTC—had become a shell of what it used to be. For context, I joined this forum in 2011, have over 600 posts, and am a paid member. This is not a throwaway account or someone casually passing through.

From what I’ve been able to gather by reading discussions here, The issues seem to trace back to drama surrounding the MACNA Denver show in 2014. Fast forward to a little over a year ago: I reached out to SynDen, who was serving as president at the time, about the possibility of helping my wife and me host Coral Con. Our intention was simple—to help energize the reefing community by combining our experience in event planning with access to our family’s wedding venue. The goal was to create something more meaningful than a typical frag sale by incorporating a stronger focus on community engagement and education.

During those discussions, we encountered significant resistance from the MASC Board of Directors regarding participation or collaboration. One idea we proposed was partnering with the club to run a cash bar at the event. The structure would have allowed the nonprofit to obtain a one-day liquor license and retain all profits from the bar as a donation. More broadly, we were interested in helping promote the MASC name and revitalizing the reefing community in general.

Throughout this process, we learned that MASC has never obtained 501(c)(3) nonprofit status, which means certain activities—such as operating under a nonprofit liquor license—are not legally possible. During these conversations I was also put in contact with a former board member who shared additional information about the club that gave me significant pause about working with the organization in the future.

Ultimately, those discussions led to a different outcome. Together with that former board member, we decided to create the NoCo Reef Club. NoCo Reef Club was established properly as a federally recognized 501(c)(3) nonprofit with transparent bylaws and financial reporting, as required by law, with the goal of supporting and strengthening the reefing community.

To be clear, NoCo Reef Club is a legitimate nonprofit organization. Membership fees are optional legally tax deductible donations, and are not required to participate in the community. Any funds collected go directly back into community activities—such as the opportunities you may have seen at the ReefStock booth this year. We host monthly meetings at our local fish store sponsor locations, which helps promote their businesses while providing food, drinks, and member discounts. Our sponsors do not pay fees to participate; they simply agree to host a meeting and offer some benefit to the community.

I feel it is important to put this information out there so that anyone still reading this forum—and anyone who may be associated with either of organizations being discussed—has a clear understanding of the situation and can make informed decisions about who they are working with.

 

[scchase]

As has always been registered under Ricky Mountain Reef club and still up to date. Available for anyine to see as it is publuc info

 

[scchase]

And to be fair

 

[SteveT]

@scchase

You just posted the state of Colorado non profit registry... This is completely different than Federal 501(c)(3) non profit designation. Also basically meaningless, literally anyone could register any name as a Colorado non profit tomorrow for 75bucks. Federal designation comes with more scrutiny in how the funds are allocated and how the organization is run. This is why 501(c)(3) non profits can take tax deductible donations, hold legal raffles abiding gambling laws, host one day liquor licences for events like fundraisers.

Scott you have been a board member, can you tell me where all the club funds have gone over the past few years? Seems like there is very little transparency which made me want to do better for the community.

It only takes a quick look through the forums history to see that the board hasn't been abiding by it's own bylaws for a while now

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[SteveT]

As long as we are whipping out and comparing credentials... Here is the one that matters

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[rmougey]

@scchase

You just posted the state of Colorado non profit registry... This is completely different than Federal 501(c)(3) non profit designation. Also basically meaningless, literally anyone could register any name as a Colorado non profit tomorrow for 75bucks. Federal designation comes with more scrutiny in how the funds are allocated and how the organization is run. This is why 501(c)(3) non profits can take tax deductible donations, hold legal raffles abiding gambling laws, host one day liquor licences for events like fundraisers.

Scott you have been a board member, can you tell me where all the club funds have gone over the past few years? Seems like there is very little transparency which made me want to do better for the community.

It only takes a quick look through the forums history to see that the board hasn't been abiding by it's own bylaws for a while now

Sent from my SM-S938U using Tapatalk

Let's be clear. Registering as a Colorado non-profit is not meaningless, it simply has limited reporting requirements and lacks the benefits that having a 501(c)3 provides. Many organizations operate successfully under either. One does not make an organization 'better' than the other, though the latter provides for more fundraising opportunities, tax deductible donations and raffle opportunities as an example. The joy of filing 990s and following specific accounting practices go hand in hand with those additional abilities.

There has sadly been a great deal of drama over the past few decades surrounding clubs, regionality and style. It goes hand in hand with people and politics. Do you prefer a group that follows Robert's Rules of Order for official meetings? Maybe something in the middle, with a framework, scheduled BOD meetings planning club outings and large events? Maybe you prefer something a bit more laid back, hanging out with friends and shooting the breeze with periodic programs and casual engagement.

There isn't anything wrong with any of those approaches, what matters is what the members want. I personally am a fan of the benevolent dictator style club. A number of aquatic clubs exist in the state today and they all take different approaches. The Colorado Aquarium Society is approaching their 75th anniversary. While primarily a fresh water club, several folks here might be surprised to learn that about 20% of their members keep marine tanks too. Bowl shows, bi-annual auctions, mini-auctions, monthly speakers, including one dedicated to the marine hobby yearly. RMCA (the cichlid folks), Colorado Killi Club, Rocky Mountain Koi Club plus a slew of Facebook clubs co-exist too.

In the past we saw a strong Colorado Springs club (SCMAS) that covered the southern part of the state. It ran hot for several years, and as with many things in life, petered out as folks left or tired of the drama. The Rocky Mountain Reef Club attempted to prove the Grand Unification theory, joining the regions of the state under one umbrella. That failed as one would expect. It morphed into what MASC is today. Laid back, casual get togethers and an annual event. There have been three attempts at forming a northern club, none of which lived for an extensive amount of time. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be another attempt by a dedicated group of folks. There were two other Denver marine clubs as well. DARC, which lived for a few years, although I know a number of folks that hoped the club would be the Denver Organization of Reef Keepers. I'll leave you to figure out the acronym. Back in the 80s and 90s, we had the Mile High Marine Enthusiasts, a club I helped found.

Clubs come and go. The key is to have some periodic Rodney King moments, "Can't we all just get along?" Don't piss in each other's Cheerios. Advertise and support other club activities. Don't step on each other. Cooperate and be good aquatic citizens. Building community is good for all. Respect those traditions that came before you. Schedule meetings on different days or weeks. CAS and RMCA do that quite well.

Aquarium clubs are on decline across the US. Facebook groups have popped up in many places in an attempt to take their place. Clubs require members to stay alive, but more so, they require leaders that strive to move the club forward. Clubs come and go. Thank the folks that are running the clubs you enjoy, it is an under appreciated job. Enthusiasm wains, people come and go. As a club or board member, ask yourself, did I help build the hobby or create a community without disrupting what was before me. If so, great! You are on the right track.

Anyone remember Reef Central? It was the center of the reef keeping Internet universe for a long time. They took themselves too seriously. Thought that they were right and everyone else was wrong. There was liberal use of the 'Ban Stick'. They didn't want to play with others and eventually faded into a husk of their former selves. Clubs come and go. Noise remains sadly.

 

[SteveT]

Rob you seem to be calling me out here so I'll respond. Yeah, maybe I exaggerated when I said meaningless. But you went on to prove my point about the differences between the designations, which is not insignificant, and the reason for the shift in focus.

I have brought up the issue of financial transparency in this club as well as the board members not following the clubs own bylaws. Do you have no problem with this @rmougey ? When people and business give money, accountability is important.

I find it strange you are defending this organization when In the past few years MASC hasn't even been a part of Reefstock, Colorados largest reefing event that you help coordinate. NOCO not only found a way to be involved but to provide a huge service to it's members. I tried to help revive this club and was met with resistance. You can look at my post history to verify this. I then heard lots of concerning information from several different sources involved in this club (former board members and vendor sponsors) in the past to give me serious pause in working with them further.

If taking ourselves too seriously means being financially accountable, legally transparent and doing everything possible to serve and build up the reefing community, I guess we are guilty as charged. Rob I would love to discuss this further personally with you if you would like.

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[rmougey]

Im seeing a lot of flat out untruthful information in this thread, so I think it’s best to address everything openly for anyone who still visits this forum—which, unfortunately, does not seem to be many these days. In fact, the decline in community activity is what started this entire situation in the first place.

I stepped away from the saltwater hobby for a few years after my daughter was born. When I returned, I was surprised to find that the community I had once been a part of—one that regularly hosted meetings, frag swaps, and DBTC—had become a shell of what it used to be. For context, I joined this forum in 2011, have over 600 posts, and am a paid member. This is not a throwaway account or someone casually passing through.

From what I’ve been able to gather by reading discussions here, The issues seem to trace back to drama surrounding the MACNA Denver show in 2014. Fast forward to a little over a year ago: I reached out to SynDen, who was serving as president at the time, about the possibility of helping my wife and me host Coral Con. Our intention was simple—to help energize the reefing community by combining our experience in event planning with access to our family’s wedding venue. The goal was to create something more meaningful than a typical frag sale by incorporating a stronger focus on community engagement and education.

During those discussions, we encountered significant resistance from the MASC Board of Directors regarding participation or collaboration. One idea we proposed was partnering with the club to run a cash bar at the event. The structure would have allowed the nonprofit to obtain a one-day liquor license and retain all profits from the bar as a donation. More broadly, we were interested in helping promote the MASC name and revitalizing the reefing community in general.

Throughout this process, we learned that MASC has never obtained 501(c)(3) nonprofit status, which means certain activities—such as operating under a nonprofit liquor license—are not legally possible. During these conversations I was also put in contact with a former board member who shared additional information about the club that gave me significant pause about working with the organization in the future.

Ultimately, those discussions led to a different outcome. Together with that former board member, we decided to create the NoCo Reef Club. NoCo Reef Club was established properly as a federally recognized 501(c)(3) nonprofit with transparent bylaws and financial reporting, as required by law, with the goal of supporting and strengthening the reefing community.

To be clear, NoCo Reef Club is a legitimate nonprofit organization. Membership fees are optional legally tax deductible donations, and are not required to participate in the community. Any funds collected go directly back into community activities—such as the opportunities you may have seen at the ReefStock booth this year. We host monthly meetings at our local fish store sponsor locations, which helps promote their businesses while providing food, drinks, and member discounts. Our sponsors do not pay fees to participate; they simply agree to host a meeting and offer some benefit to the community.

I feel it is important to put this information out there so that anyone still reading this forum—and anyone who may be associated with either of organizations being discussed—has a clear understanding of the situation and can make informed decisions about who they are working with.

Rather than untruthful, I might read that as differing opinions. But no one needs to be castigating a group that is looking to build something new. I'm hopeful that NoCo Reef Club is successful and a good club citizen.

As the individual responsible for running MACNA 2014, I'm always happy to help clarify any questions surrounding that time. Sadly drama existed prior and still today. Seems we humans are good at that.

When you approached MASC to work with them, did you look to incorporate their event into yours? Did you want to run an event on the same dates? In those cases, I could see where resistance might exist. If your idea doesn't align with the board's goals, that doesn't make either wrong, it just isn't a good fit.

MASC isn't required to have a 501(c)3, stating that they haven't isn't a negative against the club. I'm unaware how this relates to a liquor license, I haven't seen the club attempt to do anything in the past at one of their organized events. Color me confused.

Straw man arguments about former board members holds little weight here. You either want to work with the group or you don't. I know a number of former board members from a variety of organizations. Some left amicably, some with great animosity and many that I would not choose to associate with. I can not speak to this situation other than people are free to associate, or not, with those they choose.

NoCo Reef Club has some big ideas. As with many new things, there is often resistance from the established entities. As the newcomer, you have to show your value to the community, something that I have little doubt will be done. You also need to fit into the community, while running your org as you see fit. It was great having you at Reefstock. The enthusiasm and desire to build something bigger is encouraging. The approach is certainly more structured and business like. That is not a criticism. It's how a 501(c)3 should be run.

One catches more flies with honey. All the aquatic club entities can work together to support each other while observing that differences in how clubs are run is not a negative, often it is what many are looking for to decide were they are comfortable.

 

[SteveT]

The light in which NOCO was painted and the history behind it's creation and goals in this thread were factually inaccurate and I felt the need to clarify.

Yes there are also some different opinions. However when an organization takes "donations as a non profit" and isn't a 501(c)(3) and then also doesn't follow it's own bylaws and does not show any accounting or financial information or explain where club funds go. Seems like a potential for fraud, both knowingly and unknowingly, and I think that is absolutely a negative.

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[scchase]

To run a nonprofit, such as for a special event with alcohol in Colorado, you primarily need to be incorporated or registered as a nonprofit with the Colorado Secretary of State and obtain a local Special Event Liquor Permit. A state-level, not federal, license is generally required for retail/event alcohol sales.

Key Requirements for Colorado Nonprofit Liquor Licenses:

• Nonprofit Status: You must be incorporated as a nonprofit in Colorado for social, fraternal, patriotic, political, educational, or philanthropic purposes.
• Local Licensing: For special events, you will apply for a permit through your local city or county (e.g., City of Boulder or Town of Silverthorne).
• State Compliance: While local, these permits must comply with Colorado Department of Revenue regulations.
• Additional Items: You will need a Certificate of Good Standing from the Colorado Secretary of State, an exempt City Sales and Use Tax License, and to document a "need and desire" from the neighborhood.
  

If you are producing, importing, or wholesaling alcohol rather than just serving it at an event, you may also need a federal Basic Permit from the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB).

 

[scchase]

To run a legal raffle in Colorado, you need to be a qualified nonprofit organization registered with the Colorado Secretary of State (state level) and obtain a bingo-raffle license. You must have existed in Colorado for at least five consecutive years as a charitable, religious, or similar organization.
Colorado Secretary of State +2
Key Requirements for Colorado Raffles:

• Licensing: You must apply for a license through the Colorado Secretary of State.
• Eligibility: Only bona fide charitable, religious, labor, fraternal, educational, or veterans' organizations are eligible.
• Experience: The organization must have existed and operated in Colorado for 5+ years.
• Games Manager: You must have a certified games manager (requires free training from the state).
• Ticket Sales: If prizes exceed $1000
  
  you must submit a sample ticket to the state before selling.
  

Do I need Federal (501c3) or State?
While having federal 501(c)(3) status helps prove your nonprofit status, the legal authority to run a raffle in Colorado comes specifically from the Colorado Secretary of State

 

[SteveT]

I'm not sure what those AI responses are supposed to prove? I'm still waiting on the financial transparency from the board

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[rmougey]

Rob you seem to be calling me out here so I'll respond. Yeah, maybe I exaggerated when I said meaningless. But you went on to prove my point about the differences between the designations, which is not insignificant, and the reason for the shift in focus.

I have brought up the issue of financial transparency in this club as well as the board members not following the clubs own bylaws. Do you have no problem with this @rmougey ? When people and business give money, accountability is important.

I find it strange you are defending this organization when In the past few years MASC hasn't even been a part of Reefstock, Colorados largest reefing event that you help coordinate. NOCO not only found a way to be involved but to provide a huge service to it's members. I tried to help revive this club and was met with resistance. You can look at my post history to verify this. I then heard lots of concerning information from several different sources involved in this club (former board members and vendor sponsors) in the past to give me serious pause in working with them further.

If taking ourselves too seriously means being financially accountable, legally transparent and doing everything possible to serve and build up the reefing community, I guess we are guilty as charged. Rob I would love to discuss this further personally with you if you would like.

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Not calling you out. In my mind those words indicate challenge or animosity. None here. Just disagreeing with a statement that seemed to indicate that not having a 501(c)3 was a bad thing.

As for Reefstock, to be clear, it is the show that I manage, not help coordinate. MASC has been involved in the past, but did not participate this year. I offer opportunity, it is up to the organizations to partake. I recognize that desire and ability don't always match, life sometimes gets in the way. I will continue to provide opportunity for clubs and don't hold it against any one entity, vendor or manufacturer that they were unable to participate in a given year.

I generally like the folks in MASC. I prefer a laid back style for my hobbies, as opposed to the more constrained requirements for business. I believe that you brought ideas to the table that were not adopted. That doesn't mean that your ideas are bad or that the people in disagreement are bad, it just didn't fit. A board must all agree in order to move forward, and having dissent within a board is good. But I generally advise that it stay internal. I have no doubt that you presented well thought out, cogent opportunities.

As for club funds, I rely on the board members to hold each other accountable. We aren't talking about 5 or 6 figure amounts here, hell it probably isn't even much into the 4 figure range. So no, I'm not worried about club funds. I know that those dollars get used for food at events and such. There isn't enough money here to enrich anyone's life. If a bad actor is discovered, then I trust that the board would deal with it.

I have run a Colorado non-profit and been on the board of two national 501(c)3 non-profits. They had differing reporting and accounting requirements. In my mind transparency is never a bad thing. Do I think that MASC could post a quarterly spreadsheet showing incoming and outgoing funds in the members area? Sure. Do I have heartburn over it? No. When I signed the 990s, did I expect there to be a robust accounting behind them? You bet.

I'd encourage you to participate in the community as a whole. There may be one or two folks in MASC that you don't care for, but overall I see a group of caring hobbyists that want to encourage others to succeed without turning it into a full time job. I can't fault that.

It's important to be serious when running a 501(c)3, but it's also important to have fun. Otherwise it's just work.....

 

[scchase]

I'm not sure what those AI responses are supposed to prove? I'm still waiting on the financial transparency from the board

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Because they sum up the exact responses I personally got from the Secretary of State more then 10 years ago, I don't feel like retyping everything myself, and am through with this nonsense

 

[scchase]

I deleted my comment directly after it was made you have one goal and that is to needle and frustrate please leave now on your own

 

[SynDen]

Well that was fun, but has clearly crossed a line. While this started as a legitimate discussion, we feel the "no trolls allowed rule" has been step on which is an immediate ban.

Clearly this is all a targeted attempt at trying to discredit the club so they can take over the Nov date for the Coral Extravaganza. We announced the date right after the last show, and even though they knew we would be doing that date again, for the 17th year in a row, they are still determined to have their show on the same day. They sent a very public email to us and 20 other vendors stating they were still going to do that date knowing full well we were also doing it. They asked that we move the event to the summer, which we told that it was not possible for a number of reason. This is their response.

For anyone that would like to see or know the clubs financial details, I challenge you to step up to the plate and become a BOD member. As per the bylaws we do discuss and report on them regularly at our BOD meetings. That being said there is nothing in our bylaws that says we need to make them public for any reason. We are not require to report on them to anyone other then the BOD, not even the IRS, since we are not required to file taxes as a state non-profit 105c. So his claims of fraud are unfounded and unsubstantiated.

We are always open to civil discussions on how we operate the club, or about the events we do. We are always open to new idea and new ways to engage the community, and we encourage others to step up and help your community around you, that is what we are here for.

That being said I am locking this discussion as it has clearly gone off the rail of the OP. If anyone has any issues or wishes to discuss further, feel free to PM me, or any of the BOD, anytime.

 

[N1tew0lf1212]

I feel inclined to say something. Nothing has ever been said and will never be said publicly about any other club on our forum or in any negative impactful way. That defeats the purpose of what we have created and creates a backlash of events. I feel as if all Steve was trying to do is say just that. I have in no way shape or form had any ill intent driving me to do or say otherwise. Please refrain from talking about Noco on your forum especially with ill intent. We have respected you all enough to do the same on our club site and in our forum. I want the hobby to grow! Not be torn in half because of things like this. We all need to just stop and think about how we are as professionals and what we are trying to accomplish. It's to revive the community not separate. I felt the need to start Noco for the simple fact I had ideas and ways of contributing outside of the things Masc was doing. In turn those ideas and contributions are what is helping not just us grow as a club but the community as well. What's so bad about 2 clubs with different styles of approach. We are not a for profit club never have been and never will be. Every dollar earned is invested into the hobbyist and community. Every donation given is given back to the community. All we have done is create something that can be visible financially so people know where there money and donations are going. I would never and will never be that person to do anything for my own personal gain. So please let's move forward and let's just stop. I can't believe that it has come to bashing what I am trying to do when in turn it also helps masc by bringing awareness and giving options. Steve was defending the club and trying to stop the words that were being said about us for the fact they are untrue. We are not a for profit club we just have a different style of approach. Is that bad no a lot of people like our style. Is it negative or harmful to the community also a no. Let's be honest it was childish to say those things publicly and not ok for what both of our clubs are trying to represent and what we are both trying to do. So can we all just move forward on the agreement that no negativity directed towards eachother is going to happen anymore. It does not help the hobby it will only just suffocate it. I have earned the respect of many through this process and all I was trying to do was provide yet another opportunity for this amazing community. But it doesn't and should never come to this. Thank you Steve for standing up for what we are doing. As well as trying to offer facts for the things that were said initially. With that said can we all just move forward and stop the talk about each other! I respect everyone in this hobby and want everyone to be successful.

 

[SynDen]

Well since you snuck in one more comment before I locked it ill respond to you Brandon

I would just like to say that no one is bashing you or your club, and I totally agree @N1tew0lf1212
In fact we wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. It was clear you wanted to do things different, and that is fine. No benefit will come from us fighting between the clubs either, that will just serve to drive a wedge between the clubs and the community.
I sincerely hope that we can do some joint events and work together in the future.

PS remember to use the return key once in a while. The wall of text is hard to read LOL