Selling Raffle items on Craigslist
- Thread starter CRW Reef
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Should rich people not be allowed to buy Lotto tickets?
Whoever wins the prize gets the prize and it's theirs to do with as they please. Personally, I don't
mind that they are selling the stuff off. It might give me or someone else a chance to get a nice, new
piece of equipment for WAY less than market value.
Whoever wins the prize gets the prize and it's theirs to do with as they please. Personally, I don't
mind that they are selling the stuff off. It might give me or someone else a chance to get a nice, new
piece of equipment for WAY less than market value.
i wouldn't consider less than 15% is WAY less. it would be nice to give people who might not be able to afford a set up like that or other high value raffle items a chance to win compared to someone who doesn't need/want it win it only to turn and sell off at near retail value. why but in on a raffle item that you dont want in the first place when their is prob a line of people that would love it. seems a bit selfish
I have to agree with Zooid. There were no conditions on the raffle, no strings attached. It's not a poor reflection on anyone if they sell something they own outright.
I woulda sold it as well if I had won it. I have my eye on a different equipment needs...
Does that mean we should stop raffelling off items? Probably not. I put in $40 at Aquamart, and got nothing. I'll put more in at ReefStock, and may or may not win anything.
I don't put $$ in, expecting to win. I put $$ in to help the club. Period.
It's also Chad's opinion, he's entitled to one just like you and I do. Just because he's on the board, he doesn't lose that entitlement.
I've been on other non-reef related boards, and have seen "silly" things get out of hand, and make things uncomfortable. Let's not let this get out of hand. Let's get back to reefing.
I woulda sold it as well if I had won it. I have my eye on a different equipment needs...
Does that mean we should stop raffelling off items? Probably not. I put in $40 at Aquamart, and got nothing. I'll put more in at ReefStock, and may or may not win anything.
I don't put $$ in, expecting to win. I put $$ in to help the club. Period.
It's also Chad's opinion, he's entitled to one just like you and I do. Just because he's on the board, he doesn't lose that entitlement.
I've been on other non-reef related boards, and have seen "silly" things get out of hand, and make things uncomfortable. Let's not let this get out of hand. Let's get back to reefing.
Selling Raffle items on Craigslist
My view is it belongs outright to whoever won it, with no strings attached. What they do with it; sell it for profit, sell it at a discount, use it, smash it, whatever, it's entirely up to them. I couldn't care less. In fact, selling something you won, but don't need to use makes sense. A purchase is a two way agreement. If the buyer doesn't want to pay the price, then they don't. If they agree to it, the seller is happy and the buyer is happy. Who has any business in it besides the two of them?
For raffles, is it a prize or an anchor with a lot of restrictions? If they want to trade it, should they make sure they trade it for something worth less than a certain "insert an arbitrary % below retail value"? Nonsense.
If I buy something at a good price and sell it later for more, or grow it out and sell it and recoup my price, that is up to me. Buying low and selling high is the way our economy works. That's how our LFS makes money, how our coral seller sponsors make money, used car dealers, antique shops, grocery stores, and everywhere else people buy stuff do it too. I don't care if the store got it at a super discount, regular wholesale price, or it was donated to them. They post a price and I decide if it's worth it to me or not. They aren't taking advantage of me by making a profit.
If someone is selling a DBTC item without paying forward, that's another story.
Either it is a raffle with a prize, or it's buying a chance to get a DBTC item with restrictions on a future sale.
My view is it belongs outright to whoever won it, with no strings attached. What they do with it; sell it for profit, sell it at a discount, use it, smash it, whatever, it's entirely up to them. I couldn't care less. In fact, selling something you won, but don't need to use makes sense. A purchase is a two way agreement. If the buyer doesn't want to pay the price, then they don't. If they agree to it, the seller is happy and the buyer is happy. Who has any business in it besides the two of them?
For raffles, is it a prize or an anchor with a lot of restrictions? If they want to trade it, should they make sure they trade it for something worth less than a certain "insert an arbitrary % below retail value"? Nonsense.
If I buy something at a good price and sell it later for more, or grow it out and sell it and recoup my price, that is up to me. Buying low and selling high is the way our economy works. That's how our LFS makes money, how our coral seller sponsors make money, used car dealers, antique shops, grocery stores, and everywhere else people buy stuff do it too. I don't care if the store got it at a super discount, regular wholesale price, or it was donated to them. They post a price and I decide if it's worth it to me or not. They aren't taking advantage of me by making a profit.
If someone is selling a DBTC item without paying forward, that's another story.
Either it is a raffle with a prize, or it's buying a chance to get a DBTC item with restrictions on a future sale.
my point was their are lots of people that cant afford big ticket items, and the chance to win something like that might be their only way of obtaining it. and for some one who can dump 10-20 times the amount in raffle decides they want to win it just to make a profit they are missing the whole point of raffles. i agree that if people dont like the price of something they dont have to pay for it.however,i would have thought a collection of people who hate the way coral wholesalers drive up prices on coral and live stock would understand that selling an item for several times above what it was bought for would have a better moral understanding of economics. but hey, to each their own i guess
think about it... if you put restrictions on raffles, nobody will buy raffle tickets...who wins then? if i pay money for a ticket and win something, its mine fair and square...i have the ability and the right to do with it as i will...I spent my money on a chance to win something... same as everyone else....i can see both sides to this but do you think its fair to tell someone they cant have something they won? do you think its fair to offer prizes in a raffle but then tell people that only certain people can win it? I really cant understand why people are even taking sides to this...sure it would be ****ty if some little kid bought one ticket for a chance to win something and someone else bought a hundred tickets for a chance to win the same thing.... is it fair? no because odds are that the person that bought a hundred are almost guaranteed to win it... thats life... thats what ya get for buying raffle tickets...its a chance, not a guarantee. the only thing guaranteed in a lottery or a raffle is that there are winners and losers... we all cant be winners....
I’m with Fred!
OK let’s talk economics…
Let’s say there are 100 “people that can’t afford” big ticket items. And 20 people that “decide they want to win it just to make a profit” (more likely includes people in the club who want to show their fundraising support, but we’ll call them whatever). Let’s say the prize is a 40G Breeder tank.
Now let’s say ONLY “people that can’t afford” big ticket items enter a raffle:
Funds raised for club – 100 people x 1 ticket purchased each x $5 per ticket = $500 Total
Winner is guaranteed to take/use what they purchased. Guaranteed to be someone “who can’t afford” big ticket items.
Now let’s say everyone enters the raffle:
Raffle stuffers: 20 people x 15 tickets purchased each (average “10-20” tickets) x $5 per ticket = $1500 + $500 total (per above) = Total funds raised $2000
Winner may take and sell what they purchased…but hey…buyer is not going to accept private transaction unless it is below market value…so a new breeder tank exchanges hands at a very good price (likely to someone “who can’t afford” big ticket items).
We’re all in a club. Clubs run by raising money. Now about the letting the raffle stuffers participate (“people who want to turn a profit on what they buy”, “people who want to support” or whatever they are called) – know what the irony about them is? THEY FUND THE MOST CLUB GROWTH! And everyone wins for it...except for Fred's little kid that bought one ticket and didn't win...
OK let’s talk economics…
Let’s say there are 100 “people that can’t afford” big ticket items. And 20 people that “decide they want to win it just to make a profit” (more likely includes people in the club who want to show their fundraising support, but we’ll call them whatever). Let’s say the prize is a 40G Breeder tank.
Now let’s say ONLY “people that can’t afford” big ticket items enter a raffle:
Funds raised for club – 100 people x 1 ticket purchased each x $5 per ticket = $500 Total
Winner is guaranteed to take/use what they purchased. Guaranteed to be someone “who can’t afford” big ticket items.
Now let’s say everyone enters the raffle:
Raffle stuffers: 20 people x 15 tickets purchased each (average “10-20” tickets) x $5 per ticket = $1500 + $500 total (per above) = Total funds raised $2000
Winner may take and sell what they purchased…but hey…buyer is not going to accept private transaction unless it is below market value…so a new breeder tank exchanges hands at a very good price (likely to someone “who can’t afford” big ticket items).
We’re all in a club. Clubs run by raising money. Now about the letting the raffle stuffers participate (“people who want to turn a profit on what they buy”, “people who want to support” or whatever they are called) – know what the irony about them is? THEY FUND THE MOST CLUB GROWTH! And everyone wins for it...except for Fred's little kid that bought one ticket and didn't win...
I can see both sides to this argument. On one hand you have people wishing to further the club and the hobby by throwing money into tickets, and if they win - they'll figure out what to do with the item then. On the other hand you have people who wish to further the club and the hobby and who are truly wanting an item and wish to keep the item for it's intended propose. Both of these are fine, because the ultimate goal is - The club is being helped - which is the reason the raffle exists.
One thing that is not being taken into account is how the behavior of flipping a raffle item appears to vendors who donate the prizes. After being President of a club, that put on a national event, I know some vendors get steamed over people flipping a prize. The vendor wants to have media attention to their product, they want there banners on the stage right behind the MC and if it is a foot off center they will pull their sponsorship (Seen it, and dealt with it), they want to have people gushing over the product, and they are hoping that people will sing the praises of the product they won and what an awesome vendor so and so is.
Other vendors are just happy to help the community and while they want good press they don't care what happens after the event, just as long as the product is enjoyed by some one.
One thing that is not being taken into account is how the behavior of flipping a raffle item appears to vendors who donate the prizes. After being President of a club, that put on a national event, I know some vendors get steamed over people flipping a prize. The vendor wants to have media attention to their product, they want there banners on the stage right behind the MC and if it is a foot off center they will pull their sponsorship (Seen it, and dealt with it), they want to have people gushing over the product, and they are hoping that people will sing the praises of the product they won and what an awesome vendor so and so is.
Other vendors are just happy to help the community and while they want good press they don't care what happens after the event, just as long as the product is enjoyed by some one.
Selling Raffle items on Craigslist
To me this isn't an argument, just a posting of opinion, so no personal shots here. Please tell me what a moral understanding of economics is. Or, in other words, what was immoral about the opinion I posted?
If we want to make it "fair", or if it is all about making sure someone wins based just on need or desire, we should just have everyone pitch in and give it to the person that can least afford the prize. If we are raising funds for the club or a family, why is any of this discussion even happening? I just don't see the conflict.
I also don't see how to fairly put any controls on this. Any vendor afraid of what might happen with their item shouldn't donate it. Once it's given, it's out of their control.
What is a moral limit? Decided by whom? Enforced by whom? What is the punishment?
If a kid buys one ticket for $5 and wins a $500 value prize what is the "fair" price he can sell it for if he later wants a bigger tank, his mom makes him get rid of it, or he wants money for college later? Can it be double the ticket price ($10) or several times ($15), 6 times($30), 20 times, etc.
Just my opinion, and my questions to try to understand a point of view I just don't get.
To me this isn't an argument, just a posting of opinion, so no personal shots here. Please tell me what a moral understanding of economics is. Or, in other words, what was immoral about the opinion I posted?
If we want to make it "fair", or if it is all about making sure someone wins based just on need or desire, we should just have everyone pitch in and give it to the person that can least afford the prize. If we are raising funds for the club or a family, why is any of this discussion even happening? I just don't see the conflict.
I also don't see how to fairly put any controls on this. Any vendor afraid of what might happen with their item shouldn't donate it. Once it's given, it's out of their control.
What is a moral limit? Decided by whom? Enforced by whom? What is the punishment?
If a kid buys one ticket for $5 and wins a $500 value prize what is the "fair" price he can sell it for if he later wants a bigger tank, his mom makes him get rid of it, or he wants money for college later? Can it be double the ticket price ($10) or several times ($15), 6 times($30), 20 times, etc.
Just my opinion, and my questions to try to understand a point of view I just don't get.
Selling Raffle items on Craigslist
I guess I wanted to clarify my posts, the only thing I saw wrong with it was I would have liked to see it offered to the community at a killer price before it was on CL. I don't blame him for selling it cuz the more I think about it the more I think if I would have won it what would have I done... The answer.... Prob sell it to someone in the club less fortunate and looking for a tank. I would have just rather seen it kept local in the community. But in all honesty there is NO way you could regulate this or make it a rule. We all just need to close the thread and move on. Chad I welcome your opinion and think you have every right to speak on your own behalf no matter the position you hold within the BOD
I guess I wanted to clarify my posts, the only thing I saw wrong with it was I would have liked to see it offered to the community at a killer price before it was on CL. I don't blame him for selling it cuz the more I think about it the more I think if I would have won it what would have I done... The answer.... Prob sell it to someone in the club less fortunate and looking for a tank. I would have just rather seen it kept local in the community. But in all honesty there is NO way you could regulate this or make it a rule. We all just need to close the thread and move on. Chad I welcome your opinion and think you have every right to speak on your own behalf no matter the position you hold within the BOD
After careful discusion I would like to announce that the Board of Directors has voted that MASC will not have an official position on selling of raffle items, once someone wins someting it is their property to do with as they please. We understand that there are verying views on the topic within the club and ask that future conversation on the topic is kept civil.
Thank you to all the people that do support the club in whatever way they choose and we hope to continue to bring in great new items to be raffled off at our events to help support the general operating budget as well as larger events currently in planning and soon to be announced.
Thank you to all the people that do support the club in whatever way they choose and we hope to continue to bring in great new items to be raffled off at our events to help support the general operating budget as well as larger events currently in planning and soon to be announced.
We ALL know why you're chiming in on this. Just thought I would remind you and everyone else, I offered this out there hoping for someone just getting started because, as the ad reflects....
"I also have sand (dead or live) and liverock to get you started immediately. I also have corals to sweeten the deal if desired. If you're new to the saltwater hobby or testing the waters, I will help you out as much as you need. I also have tons more for anyone getting started (test kits, chemicals, food, etc)"
Is that not worth something??
Couldn't agree more with your earlier post btw.
I just wanted to share this with the membership. This is NOT a look-how-great-I-am thing, as you can see everything from my original Craigslist post as it's been posted in this thread. Just more of an FYI before people should jump to conclusions. As a side note, my CL ad was flagged...hmmm.
This tank setup DID go to a forum member, a new one at that!! I can tell you in the past I have referred MANY people to the MASC community that I met off Craigslist. A couple of which I know are here now! So it wasn't a stretch for me to try and find someone, anyone...that was new to the hobby to share this with. I can also tell you that this new member was very gracious in how he felt what I was including with the tank and the support system to go along was the selling point, and what he believed MASC is all about. I completely agreed and was saddened even more about my departure because that is what I DO believe this community is supposed to be about.
Here is what saddened me the most, all the judgmental attitudes and lack of freedom for a person to do what they will with their game-of-chance winnings. It saddened me because my plan from the beginning of my decision to sell it, was to set someone new to the hobby up with a terrific start. One of the reasons I headed to Craigslist. I knew that would be a larger audience AND maybe, just maybe I would refer them to MASC as I had done so many times before.
As for those thinking I was just profiteering. Let me run this by you showing what I had "into" this setup I was "selling". $40 in raffle tickets to win it. 20+ pounds of liverock, which could easily cost someone buying at an LFS over $120. All the sand desired. All the saltwater they desired. All the RO they desired. Red macro algae. Coral frags. Saltwater test kit, freshwater test kit (for their son who just starting freshwater)...and all the answers to questions and support they desire. I guess I was really taking advantage of someone after all 'eh?
Again the saddest part of this is how it was reacted to and hopefully, at my detriment, all those lucky enough to win a raffle (as I entered every time, but this was my first time winning) in the future will not have to stress if they choose to part ways with their winnings. The actual donor of the tank (Aquamart) had been nearly my sole source of business in the entire metro area prior to this and now will get 95% of all my business in the future (just so far away).
Now I'll gladly let whoever chooses to chime in on whether I'm a scammer or not....
"I also have sand (dead or live) and liverock to get you started immediately. I also have corals to sweeten the deal if desired. If you're new to the saltwater hobby or testing the waters, I will help you out as much as you need. I also have tons more for anyone getting started (test kits, chemicals, food, etc)"
Is that not worth something??
Couldn't agree more with your earlier post btw.
I just wanted to share this with the membership. This is NOT a look-how-great-I-am thing, as you can see everything from my original Craigslist post as it's been posted in this thread. Just more of an FYI before people should jump to conclusions. As a side note, my CL ad was flagged...hmmm.
This tank setup DID go to a forum member, a new one at that!! I can tell you in the past I have referred MANY people to the MASC community that I met off Craigslist. A couple of which I know are here now! So it wasn't a stretch for me to try and find someone, anyone...that was new to the hobby to share this with. I can also tell you that this new member was very gracious in how he felt what I was including with the tank and the support system to go along was the selling point, and what he believed MASC is all about. I completely agreed and was saddened even more about my departure because that is what I DO believe this community is supposed to be about.
Here is what saddened me the most, all the judgmental attitudes and lack of freedom for a person to do what they will with their game-of-chance winnings. It saddened me because my plan from the beginning of my decision to sell it, was to set someone new to the hobby up with a terrific start. One of the reasons I headed to Craigslist. I knew that would be a larger audience AND maybe, just maybe I would refer them to MASC as I had done so many times before.
As for those thinking I was just profiteering. Let me run this by you showing what I had "into" this setup I was "selling". $40 in raffle tickets to win it. 20+ pounds of liverock, which could easily cost someone buying at an LFS over $120. All the sand desired. All the saltwater they desired. All the RO they desired. Red macro algae. Coral frags. Saltwater test kit, freshwater test kit (for their son who just starting freshwater)...and all the answers to questions and support they desire. I guess I was really taking advantage of someone after all 'eh?
Again the saddest part of this is how it was reacted to and hopefully, at my detriment, all those lucky enough to win a raffle (as I entered every time, but this was my first time winning) in the future will not have to stress if they choose to part ways with their winnings. The actual donor of the tank (Aquamart) had been nearly my sole source of business in the entire metro area prior to this and now will get 95% of all my business in the future (just so far away).
Now I'll gladly let whoever chooses to chime in on whether I'm a scammer or not....- Status